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There are no "unsolved problems" for nuclear (because the safe storage of fissile waste for 10k years isn't a problem we need to solve, apparently). By contrast

There are no "unsolved problems" for nuclear (because the safe storage of fissile waste for 10k years isn't a problem we need to solve, apparently). By contrast, getting solar+wind fully up and running requires totally solving the storage problem. Plus the libs love it. Hence ... nuclear.

lesuorac 2y ago
> because the safe storage of fissile waste for 10k years isn't a problem we need to solve, apparently We never solved it for the other material that we dug up and burned (coal). So coal ends up emitting a ton of radioactive waste because uh when you dig up the ground you also dig up radioactive uranium (there's no 100% pure carbon deposits). It's also only a self-inflicted problem. You can technically re-use the waste until it only needs to be stored for ~300 years before it decays to "normal" levels. The US doesn't allow you to do that though while say France does.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  > We never solved it for the other material that we dug up and burned (coal). Oh yes. Having fucked up this badly with long chain hydrocarbon combustion, lets do it all over again with fission, because ... well, we did it once already, right?
  - tnecio 2y ago
    The orders of magnitude are different here. Replacing something that becomes a huge problem within two hundred years with something that (potentially) becomes a problem in a few thousand years -- really is better than spending valuable time on developing an "ideal" solution
    - Krssst 2y ago
      Nuclear waste is a local problem. They're solid not gaseous. GHGs are a worldwide problem. Years don't matter if climate change puts an end to human civilization.
      - throwaway173738 2y ago
        Whose locality bears the brunt of this? Do you mind if we put some where you live?
      - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
        Climate change will not end human civilization, unless by "human civilization" you mean the very specific configuration that habitation patterns, agriculture, national boundaries and numbers of living humans all have at this very moment. Likely hundreds of millions to a few billion will die that need not have died, wars will be fought, relocation and migration will be of unprecedented scope and scale, there will be hunger and disease ... but "human civilization" will persist through all of that. Thats not a reason to celebrate, it's just a reason to describe the risks and outcomes accurately.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
      Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else has any truly authoritative knowledge on when (or if) fissile waste will become a problem, and if it does, just how large (time, space, populations, ecosystems) of a problem it will be.
      - defrost 2y ago
        Fissile waste has been a health problem even before first mining uranium in the DRC well before WWII. Hanford has a standing legacy problem of fissile waste from both weapons and energy work. * https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/fuel-recycling/plutonium https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-c... * https://www.icanw.org/hanford_s_dirty_secret_and_it_s_not_56_million_gallons_of_nuclear_waste https://www.icanw.org/hanford_s_dirty_secret_and_it_s_not_56... Human activity aside, every valley with a substantial amount of granite rock about the planet pools with radon gas on a daily basis until the wind clears it out. While this is just one of those things that's a risk on the order of a pack a day smoking habit to those who live there, radon is a fission by product from the breakdown of the uranium within the granite.
        PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
        I read this as just an attempt to rationalize fissile waste issues as "more of the same". Maybe you truly feel comfortable doing that, maybe you see it as something else. I, in contrast, view the development of fission-based nuclear mechanisms (whether for explosives or for power generation) as a distinct break with the past, and a point in human history where an entirely new problem was brought into being. And not just a new problem, but one that would last longer than any human civilization has ever lasted. So, to me, you comparison of envionmental radon issues with the problems posed by storing and managing the waste produced by fission reactors is ... well, I scarely have words for it.
        defrost 2y ago
        I spent a few years in exploration geophysics. You stated "[No one] has any truly authoritative knowledge on when (or if) fissile waste will become a problem". I informed you that fissile waste is already a big problem at multiple sites across the planet, several US sites and Russian sites more so than anywhere else, and has been a problem for > 50 years. You're welcome. > you comparison of envionmental radon issues with the problems posed by storing and managing the waste produced by fission reactors is ... well, I scarely have words for it. That's clearly a minor aside .. you ignored the 70+ tonnes of plutonium waste at Hanford. Billions have been spent dealing with it to date and there's much left to do and spend to clean up that one site. Don't strawman the issue, it's a large problem and there are tomes on the subject filling shelves. Humans do need to deal with radioactive waste, this includes the large dams of radioactive waste created as a by product of rare earth and lithium processing.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    > lets do it all over again with fission You can look at it this way. Or you could can look at it as we reduced radioactive emissions by switching to nuclear from coal. Everything has trade-offs. It's not like solar has no side-effects.
Krssst 2y ago
Climate change is a decades-order problem. Worst case is end of human civilization. Waste storage is a problem for once climate change is solved. Worst case is local degradation of environment. A grid powered almost-fully by nuclear and water is proven feasible by France. A grid almost-fully powered by renewables for a full year in an industrialized country is yet to be seen. Renewables do work well when combined to fossil fuels, but we need to get off them. The Republicans programs for electricity is completely insane and renewables is a much better alternative than drilling more fossil fuels. Nuclear is more realistic but the political will is not there unfortunately. > Plus the libs love it. Hence ... nuclear. One can be supportive of Democrats and liberals while not agreeing with one policy point.
- defrost 2y ago
  * Renewable energy sources collectively produced 81% of Denmark's electricity generation in 2022, and are expected to provide 100% of national electric power production from 2030. * Renewable energy sources collectively produced 75% of South Australia's electricity generation in 2023, and are expected to provide 100% of state electric power production from 2027. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Denmark - https://reneweconomy.com.au/from-zero-to-100-pct-renewables-in-just-20-years-south-australias-remarkable-energy-transition/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/from-zero-to-100-pct-renewables-...
  - bluefirebrand 2y ago
    These are very likely misleading stats > Renewable energy sources collectively produced 81% of Denmark's electricity generation in 2022, and are expected to provide 100% of national electric power production from 2030. This doesn't say anything about how much of Denmark's consumption this covers, only their production It turns out they import a bunch of their electricity from neighbors This is a sneaky way to pretend you don't consume fossil fuels
    - defrost 2y ago
      These are locations heading for 100% renewable supply in the very near future. The capital of South Australia is some distance from the border, even further from the Victorian capital (Melbourne) and is weakly linked compared to EU countries. In South Australia, the current connection to Victoria allows for just 25 per cent of its maximum demand to imported or exported. “So what that means for South Australia is we have to be a lot more self reliant. And ultimately, South Australia is the test lab for the whole NEM (National Electricity Market,” Or exported .. SA actually exports a great deal of peak renewable energy, it over produces in the daylight and uses that to charge a battery farm or to feed to the neighbouring state. The stats are no more misleading than the GP claim this is in response to, namely "A grid powered almost-fully by nuclear and water is proven feasible by France." France derives about 70% of its electricity from nuclear energy, due to a long-standing policy based on energy security. ~ https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profil...
ars 2y ago
There is no storage problem. A breeder reactor plus reprocessing means there is no waste in the first place, and also gives us 100 to 1000 times as much usable uranium.
sanderjd 2y ago
The "unsolved problem" for nuclear is doing it time- and cost- competitively with solar.
AnthonyMouse 2y ago
> because the safe storage of fissile waste for 10k years isn't a problem we need to solve, apparently It literally isn't. There are two known solutions already. The stupid way, which is to put it in a dry hole in a geologically stable desert, and the smart way, which is to use it as fuel because it isn't actually waste anyway. Neither of these things are currently happening for only one very specific reason: The global fossil fuel industry (including Russia) lobbies against them because they want to retain a piece of political rhetoric to argue against replacing fossil fuels with nuclear. But that's a self-solving problem, because if you actually do replace fossil fuels with nuclear then the fossil fuel industry goes away, stops lobbying against anything, and then you can use either of the known solutions. Which means we'd only have to store the material for a few decades until that happens. The solution to that is what we're already doing at existing reactors, which is largely to keep the spent fuel rods at the power plant. It may also give you some indication of the scale of the problem to realize that you can hold all of the spent fuel ever generated by a reactor that has been in operation for decades on the site of the reactor itself.

lesuorac 2y ago

> because the safe storage of fissile waste for 10k years isn't a problem we need to solve, apparently We never solved it for the other material that we dug up and burned (coal). So coal ends up emitting a ton of radioactive waste because uh when you dig up the ground you also dig up radioactive uranium (there's no 100% pure carbon deposits). It's also only a self-inflicted problem. You can technically re-use the waste until it only needs to be stored for ~300 years before it decays to "normal" levels. The US doesn't allow you to do that though while say France does.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
> We never solved it for the other material that we dug up and burned (coal). Oh yes. Having fucked up this badly with long chain hydrocarbon combustion, lets do it all over again with fission, because ... well, we did it once already, right?
- tnecio 2y ago
  The orders of magnitude are different here. Replacing something that becomes a huge problem within two hundred years with something that (potentially) becomes a problem in a few thousand years -- really is better than spending valuable time on developing an "ideal" solution
  - Krssst 2y ago
    Nuclear waste is a local problem. They're solid not gaseous. GHGs are a worldwide problem. Years don't matter if climate change puts an end to human civilization.
    - throwaway173738 2y ago
      Whose locality bears the brunt of this? Do you mind if we put some where you live?
    - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
      Climate change will not end human civilization, unless by "human civilization" you mean the very specific configuration that habitation patterns, agriculture, national boundaries and numbers of living humans all have at this very moment. Likely hundreds of millions to a few billion will die that need not have died, wars will be fought, relocation and migration will be of unprecedented scope and scale, there will be hunger and disease ... but "human civilization" will persist through all of that. Thats not a reason to celebrate, it's just a reason to describe the risks and outcomes accurately.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else has any truly authoritative knowledge on when (or if) fissile waste will become a problem, and if it does, just how large (time, space, populations, ecosystems) of a problem it will be.
    - defrost 2y ago
      Fissile waste has been a health problem even before first mining uranium in the DRC well before WWII. Hanford has a standing legacy problem of fissile waste from both weapons and energy work. * https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/fuel-recycling/plutonium https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-c... * https://www.icanw.org/hanford_s_dirty_secret_and_it_s_not_56_million_gallons_of_nuclear_waste https://www.icanw.org/hanford_s_dirty_secret_and_it_s_not_56... Human activity aside, every valley with a substantial amount of granite rock about the planet pools with radon gas on a daily basis until the wind clears it out. While this is just one of those things that's a risk on the order of a pack a day smoking habit to those who live there, radon is a fission by product from the breakdown of the uranium within the granite.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
        I read this as just an attempt to rationalize fissile waste issues as "more of the same". Maybe you truly feel comfortable doing that, maybe you see it as something else. I, in contrast, view the development of fission-based nuclear mechanisms (whether for explosives or for power generation) as a distinct break with the past, and a point in human history where an entirely new problem was brought into being. And not just a new problem, but one that would last longer than any human civilization has ever lasted. So, to me, you comparison of envionmental radon issues with the problems posed by storing and managing the waste produced by fission reactors is ... well, I scarely have words for it.
        defrost 2y ago
        I spent a few years in exploration geophysics. You stated "[No one] has any truly authoritative knowledge on when (or if) fissile waste will become a problem". I informed you that fissile waste is already a big problem at multiple sites across the planet, several US sites and Russian sites more so than anywhere else, and has been a problem for > 50 years. You're welcome. > you comparison of envionmental radon issues with the problems posed by storing and managing the waste produced by fission reactors is ... well, I scarely have words for it. That's clearly a minor aside .. you ignored the 70+ tonnes of plutonium waste at Hanford. Billions have been spent dealing with it to date and there's much left to do and spend to clean up that one site. Don't strawman the issue, it's a large problem and there are tomes on the subject filling shelves. Humans do need to deal with radioactive waste, this includes the large dams of radioactive waste created as a by product of rare earth and lithium processing.
- lesuorac 2y ago
  > lets do it all over again with fission You can look at it this way. Or you could can look at it as we reduced radioactive emissions by switching to nuclear from coal. Everything has trade-offs. It's not like solar has no side-effects.

Krssst 2y ago

Climate change is a decades-order problem. Worst case is end of human civilization. Waste storage is a problem for once climate change is solved. Worst case is local degradation of environment. A grid powered almost-fully by nuclear and water is proven feasible by France. A grid almost-fully powered by renewables for a full year in an industrialized country is yet to be seen. Renewables do work well when combined to fossil fuels, but we need to get off them. The Republicans programs for electricity is completely insane and renewables is a much better alternative than drilling more fossil fuels. Nuclear is more realistic but the political will is not there unfortunately. > Plus the libs love it. Hence ... nuclear. One can be supportive of Democrats and liberals while not agreeing with one policy point.

defrost 2y ago
* Renewable energy sources collectively produced 81% of Denmark's electricity generation in 2022, and are expected to provide 100% of national electric power production from 2030. * Renewable energy sources collectively produced 75% of South Australia's electricity generation in 2023, and are expected to provide 100% of state electric power production from 2027. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Denmark - https://reneweconomy.com.au/from-zero-to-100-pct-renewables-in-just-20-years-south-australias-remarkable-energy-transition/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/from-zero-to-100-pct-renewables-...
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  These are very likely misleading stats > Renewable energy sources collectively produced 81% of Denmark's electricity generation in 2022, and are expected to provide 100% of national electric power production from 2030. This doesn't say anything about how much of Denmark's consumption this covers, only their production It turns out they import a bunch of their electricity from neighbors This is a sneaky way to pretend you don't consume fossil fuels
  - defrost 2y ago
    These are locations heading for 100% renewable supply in the very near future. The capital of South Australia is some distance from the border, even further from the Victorian capital (Melbourne) and is weakly linked compared to EU countries. In South Australia, the current connection to Victoria allows for just 25 per cent of its maximum demand to imported or exported. “So what that means for South Australia is we have to be a lot more self reliant. And ultimately, South Australia is the test lab for the whole NEM (National Electricity Market,” Or exported .. SA actually exports a great deal of peak renewable energy, it over produces in the daylight and uses that to charge a battery farm or to feed to the neighbouring state. The stats are no more misleading than the GP claim this is in response to, namely "A grid powered almost-fully by nuclear and water is proven feasible by France." France derives about 70% of its electricity from nuclear energy, due to a long-standing policy based on energy security. ~ https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profil...

ars 2y ago

There is no storage problem. A breeder reactor plus reprocessing means there is no waste in the first place, and also gives us 100 to 1000 times as much usable uranium.

sanderjd 2y ago

The "unsolved problem" for nuclear is doing it time- and cost- competitively with solar.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago

> because the safe storage of fissile waste for 10k years isn't a problem we need to solve, apparently It literally isn't. There are two known solutions already. The stupid way, which is to put it in a dry hole in a geologically stable desert, and the smart way, which is to use it as fuel because it isn't actually waste anyway. Neither of these things are currently happening for only one very specific reason: The global fossil fuel industry (including Russia) lobbies against them because they want to retain a piece of political rhetoric to argue against replacing fossil fuels with nuclear. But that's a self-solving problem, because if you actually do replace fossil fuels with nuclear then the fossil fuel industry goes away, stops lobbying against anything, and then you can use either of the known solutions. Which means we'd only have to store the material for a few decades until that happens. The solution to that is what we're already doing at existing reactors, which is largely to keep the spent fuel rods at the power plant. It may also give you some indication of the scale of the problem to realize that you can hold all of the spent fuel ever generated by a reactor that has been in operation for decades on the site of the reactor itself.