3 ms·

>Whatever happened to the whole debate around Ubuntu including ZFS modules by default in Ubuntu? At the time it originally got proposed, I feel like I remember

by xoa 2y ago

>Whatever happened to the whole debate around Ubuntu including ZFS modules by default in Ubuntu? At the time it originally got proposed, I feel like I remember basically everyone other than Canonical agreeing that this wasn't allowed by the licenses of Linux and ZFS I think your recollection here is pretty colored, or else you were only reading stuff from one particular bubble. My own recollection is that there were very compelling arguments to the contrary, ones that I agreed with. Like, foundational to the concept of civil court cases is "standing" which is almost invariably down to a party suffering damages. Courts aren't a venue (at least in the US in general) for solving debates of abstract philosophy, that's what civil society is about, they're for applying the state's general monopoly on violence in order to rectify harms. Party A claims they were damaged by Party B (statutory, actual or both) in a way that violates the law. The remedy if they win is generally that they are made whole via money as best as possible or, rarely, via actual performance by Party B. But if open source license GPL code is distributed with open source license CDDL code, with full access the source of both available, who is losing money on that? Who is getting damaged? What rights are being lost? Who has standing to sue over it? The idea that it's banned at all isn't tested legally anyway afaik, but more fundamentally if there is no harm then there simply isn't any court case. Say you saghm decided tomorrow that you were really steamed about ZFS being included with Ubuntu and decided to get going on your lawsuit on Monday, when the court asks "how much money did that cost you and what do you want us to do about it" what would your answer be, even putting aside "what's your theory of law on this one". >and from what I can tell, they basically got away with it? Well, that would be expected if there just isn't any case there right?

Y_Y 2y ago
Your interpretation doesn't seem compatible with (my understanding of) how IP licensing as a part of contract law works. If I distribute copyrighted music via torrent, the RIAA isn't going to waste time finding out if the recipients were planning to buy CDs otherwise. If you receive software under a license that is too restrictive for you, then there is always the option to pay the rightholder to grant you a more permissive license in exchange for money. (I don't approve of this system, I am merely describing what I see as the status quo.)
- mustache_kimono 2y ago
  > (I don't approve of this system, I am merely describing what I see as the status quo.) As has been said, being a FOSS "advocate" may put you on many sides of any copyright issue. > RIAA isn't going to waste time finding out if the recipients were planning to buy CDs otherwise. If you receive software under a license that is too restrictive for you, then there is always the option to pay the rightholder to grant you a more permissive license in exchange for money. Your comparison fails to understand how different these claims are. First, those CDs have a price on the tin. That is -- this claim would have "actual damages" which can be readily determined. Second, you're speculating a new license for either Linux or OpenZFS is possible, but I don't think anyone imagines either is readily available given the number of rights holders. If Oracle was offering to relicense (BTW only its portion of the ZFS source) for a known and reasonable amount $X, like your CDs, then your comparison might make more sense (but read on, the offer of another license does not preclude a finding of non-infringement). Thankfully, of course, copyright law provides for statutory damages where actual damages cannot readily be proven, as here. But those nominal/statutory damages divided up among Linux rights holders would be almost insignificant, and therefore this poster above is likely correct -- this may not be a legally cognizable injury. While I may agree re: this poster's damages analysis, I'm not even sure that's the best form of the ZFS argument. IMHO where anyone creates a functional software interface, whether it be via game console's cart or a kernel module, fair use allows one to create to software and use that interface. Period. Your license can say whatever it wants. Your license can say "all your software now belongs to use" and IMHO it is completely unenforceable. IMHO the courts have favored software interoperability and fair use for years. For example: In Sega Enterprises, Ltd. v. Accolade, Inc., the court denied copyright protection for “functional requirements for compatibility with the Genesis console . . . .” Under this approach, the right of the kernel module author to create a compatible module overrides any nominal copyright infringement created when that author creates static or dynamic links to kernel code. Sega’s Genesis console had no public API whatsoever, stable or otherwise, yet the court still denied protection to these functional elements. Regardless of the status of the API or system interface required for compatibility, any parts of a program that a developer must copy — such as kernel headers, definition files, variables, or mandatory Linux kernel function calls — in order to create a Linux-compatible kernel module would not receive copyright protection.[0] The case is much stronger re: ZFS because the court explicitly protected reverse engineering in Sega, whereas here the Linux kernel devs have published the code to their interface. Note, Sega even offered Accolade a license (just as we discussed the potential for an alternative license above) that would have allowed Accolade to create Sega-compatible games. Notwithstanding this offer, the court declined to find copyright infringement in Accolade’s creation of Sega-compatible games without a license. [0]: https://www.networkworld.com/article/836041/smb-encouraging-closed-source-modules-part-2-law-and-the-module-interface.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/836041/smb-encouraging-...

by xoa 2y ago

Y_Y 2y ago

Your interpretation doesn't seem compatible with (my understanding of) how IP licensing as a part of contract law works. If I distribute copyrighted music via torrent, the RIAA isn't going to waste time finding out if the recipients were planning to buy CDs otherwise. If you receive software under a license that is too restrictive for you, then there is always the option to pay the rightholder to grant you a more permissive license in exchange for money. (I don't approve of this system, I am merely describing what I see as the status quo.)

mustache_kimono 2y ago
> (I don't approve of this system, I am merely describing what I see as the status quo.) As has been said, being a FOSS "advocate" may put you on many sides of any copyright issue. > RIAA isn't going to waste time finding out if the recipients were planning to buy CDs otherwise. If you receive software under a license that is too restrictive for you, then there is always the option to pay the rightholder to grant you a more permissive license in exchange for money. Your comparison fails to understand how different these claims are. First, those CDs have a price on the tin. That is -- this claim would have "actual damages" which can be readily determined. Second, you're speculating a new license for either Linux or OpenZFS is possible, but I don't think anyone imagines either is readily available given the number of rights holders. If Oracle was offering to relicense (BTW only its portion of the ZFS source) for a known and reasonable amount $X, like your CDs, then your comparison might make more sense (but read on, the offer of another license does not preclude a finding of non-infringement). Thankfully, of course, copyright law provides for statutory damages where actual damages cannot readily be proven, as here. But those nominal/statutory damages divided up among Linux rights holders would be almost insignificant, and therefore this poster above is likely correct -- this may not be a legally cognizable injury. While I may agree re: this poster's damages analysis, I'm not even sure that's the best form of the ZFS argument. IMHO where anyone creates a functional software interface, whether it be via game console's cart or a kernel module, fair use allows one to create to software and use that interface. Period. Your license can say whatever it wants. Your license can say "all your software now belongs to use" and IMHO it is completely unenforceable. IMHO the courts have favored software interoperability and fair use for years. For example: In Sega Enterprises, Ltd. v. Accolade, Inc., the court denied copyright protection for “functional requirements for compatibility with the Genesis console . . . .” Under this approach, the right of the kernel module author to create a compatible module overrides any nominal copyright infringement created when that author creates static or dynamic links to kernel code. Sega’s Genesis console had no public API whatsoever, stable or otherwise, yet the court still denied protection to these functional elements. Regardless of the status of the API or system interface required for compatibility, any parts of a program that a developer must copy — such as kernel headers, definition files, variables, or mandatory Linux kernel function calls — in order to create a Linux-compatible kernel module would not receive copyright protection.[0] The case is much stronger re: ZFS because the court explicitly protected reverse engineering in Sega, whereas here the Linux kernel devs have published the code to their interface. Note, Sega even offered Accolade a license (just as we discussed the potential for an alternative license above) that would have allowed Accolade to create Sega-compatible games. Notwithstanding this offer, the court declined to find copyright infringement in Accolade’s creation of Sega-compatible games without a license. [0]: https://www.networkworld.com/article/836041/smb-encouraging-closed-source-modules-part-2-law-and-the-module-interface.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/836041/smb-encouraging-...