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> Because the federal government was meant to be extremely limited and mostly serve to mediate _actual_ interstate commerce and foreign affairs. The oft ignored

by _w1tm 2y ago

> Because the federal government was meant to be extremely limited and mostly serve to mediate _actual_ interstate commerce and foreign affairs. The oft ignored 10th amendment left most everything else to states or the people. What some people in the 18th century intended it to be matters little in the 21st. Today it’s a massive legacy system that is almost impossible to reform without a rewrite.

ty6853 2y ago
Clearly it does, as we now have a system highly maladaptive for what it delivers; and that is the legacy you refer to built from 18th century intentions.
- mmooss 2y ago
  Is there a system of government that is less maladaptive?
  - ty6853 2y ago
    Given you called the senate 'gerrymandering' I think you had an idea before you hid behind this socratic method to avoid making any assertion yourself.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      Too bad you have to turn a conversation into a fight. I wasn't thinking that at all. I hope your day improves!
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - ty6853 2y ago
        ... you were trumping up how rural people had an oversized hand. Now you pretend you have no idea. Lets not play dumb.
        mmooss 2y ago
        When you stop seeing everything through an adverserial filter, you'll find a world of friendly, interested, curious people. I know from experience. Just put faith in people, learn to recognize your subjective biases (usually driven by emotion) - even if you can't see past them, just know they're there and have some blind faith - and you'll be amazed. I know from experience. Here's a trick: Go through this process: 'My emotions, which are not reality; are ...; my perceptions, which are not reality, are ...; if I bring my intellect to bear, I've learned ...'. At no point do we know reality - those things are all we've got, 'shadows on the wall'. The process forces us to sync up our frontal cortex and the emotional parts of our brains, which is essential and powerful, and to get some distance from our own perceptions.
        ty6853 2y ago
        Why are you so emotionally hostile to the fact that the founders would have found the present day government wildly unconstitutional? The Constitution has been amended and reinterpreted many times since then, why on earth would that be done if the things they wanted were already constitutional at time of founding?
somenameforme 2y ago
It matters immensely because in modern times people have become grossly naive as to what happens when a nation becomes sufficiently divided. Imagine some change to the system was created such that one party, or the other, could effectively permanently maintain absolute power. It's not like the other ~half of the country is just going to go 'Wellp, I guess this is just the way it is now. I completely surrender.' No, the end result is invariably violence. That is the reason the Senate is designed how it is. People will get a voice in the House, and states get a voice in the Senate. In fact it wasn't even until the 20th century with the 17 (IIRC) amendment that Senators were even openly elected - previously they were s(elected) by state legislatures. The entire Constitution is written to create a system where people can loathe each other yet still manage to stay under the same flag. And it turned some backwater outposts into perhaps the greatest empire in history, all in a ridiculously brief period of time. So clearly there was more than a bit of wisdom in its construction.

by _w1tm 2y ago

ty6853 2y ago

Clearly it does, as we now have a system highly maladaptive for what it delivers; and that is the legacy you refer to built from 18th century intentions.

mmooss 2y ago
Is there a system of government that is less maladaptive?
- ty6853 2y ago
  Given you called the senate 'gerrymandering' I think you had an idea before you hid behind this socratic method to avoid making any assertion yourself.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    Too bad you have to turn a conversation into a fight. I wasn't thinking that at all. I hope your day improves!
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - ty6853 2y ago
      ... you were trumping up how rural people had an oversized hand. Now you pretend you have no idea. Lets not play dumb.
      - mmooss 2y ago
        When you stop seeing everything through an adverserial filter, you'll find a world of friendly, interested, curious people. I know from experience. Just put faith in people, learn to recognize your subjective biases (usually driven by emotion) - even if you can't see past them, just know they're there and have some blind faith - and you'll be amazed. I know from experience. Here's a trick: Go through this process: 'My emotions, which are not reality; are ...; my perceptions, which are not reality, are ...; if I bring my intellect to bear, I've learned ...'. At no point do we know reality - those things are all we've got, 'shadows on the wall'. The process forces us to sync up our frontal cortex and the emotional parts of our brains, which is essential and powerful, and to get some distance from our own perceptions.
        ty6853 2y ago
        Why are you so emotionally hostile to the fact that the founders would have found the present day government wildly unconstitutional? The Constitution has been amended and reinterpreted many times since then, why on earth would that be done if the things they wanted were already constitutional at time of founding?

somenameforme 2y ago

It matters immensely because in modern times people have become grossly naive as to what happens when a nation becomes sufficiently divided. Imagine some change to the system was created such that one party, or the other, could effectively permanently maintain absolute power. It's not like the other ~half of the country is just going to go 'Wellp, I guess this is just the way it is now. I completely surrender.' No, the end result is invariably violence. That is the reason the Senate is designed how it is. People will get a voice in the House, and states get a voice in the Senate. In fact it wasn't even until the 20th century with the 17 (IIRC) amendment that Senators were even openly elected - previously they were s(elected) by state legislatures. The entire Constitution is written to create a system where people can loathe each other yet still manage to stay under the same flag. And it turned some backwater outposts into perhaps the greatest empire in history, all in a ridiculously brief period of time. So clearly there was more than a bit of wisdom in its construction.