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Moi aussi je suis francais. > French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. Maybe it's because I spent most of my time in big ci

Moi aussi je suis francais. > French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. Maybe it's because I spent most of my time in big cities hanging out with relatively well-educated, often left-leaning, relatively young people, but I'm not getting that vibe at all. Yes, you do have pathological cases of badly integrated immigrant communities - for example the quartiers Nord de Marseille, and yes, I've known more working class people who have to endure abuse from anti-social immigrant drug dealers to express some pretty far right views, but I'm not sure that reflects the majority of the French population. I don't watch the news much, but when I do I don't see anything about issues with integration, mostly stuff about Ukraine and Trump.

eastbound 2y ago
[flagged]
- dadoum 2y ago
  > Your lack of empathy for others is always baffling for me. “I haven’t had problems with occupants, therefore they are not a problem.” They just said that they hadn't observed the same thing in their entourage. > Some had to crawl, bleeding on the floor, reciting to Coran. Are you referring to a recent event in France? Can't find any with the query "réciter coran otage". That quote makes France look like a war zone. > Some pupils grow under oppression, having to donate their lunch meal every day. > Some had to give their mobile phone. Are you making a link with "occupants" from the first sentence? Because bullying and assault didn't wait for immigration to exist, and criminality in general is caused by so much factors that makes the analysis harder than just looking at correlations. > some people are thrown in the Seine. Search for "jeté dans la Seine" (thrown in the Seine): - [20 years ago] Brahim Bouraam: murder of a Moroccan in Paris by a far-right militant [0] - [5 days ago] A jogger thrown into the Seine by a drunken German, another bystander injured [1] I don't think you referred to those actions. > But as long as you give occupants priority and respect in your life, and you respect them Nobody said something remotely related to that in the thread. > don’t say anything about the occupied zone ... I hope that you can still find some enjoyment in the dystopian alternate reality you're experiencing. PS: I lived in a hot district. I haven't been assaulted but I know someone who has been. It hasn't been perpetrated by an immigrant, and nothing happened after. He hasn't been caught, police closed the case, and life went on. It makes me think the problem here is not related to immigrants. But that's anecdata anyway. A study apparently found no correlation between immigration and criminality [2]. [0]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Brahim_Bouraam https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Brahim_Bouraam [1]: https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_divers/faits-divers-paris/4143877-20250317-paris-joggeur-jete-seine-allemand-ivre-autre-passant-blessee https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_divers/faits-divers-paris/414... [2]: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/04/23/no-study-has-found-any-effect-of-immigration-on-criminality_6023985_7.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/04/23/no-study...
  - anonym29 2y ago
    I find your linked study intriguing, as an American who's aware of studies on my side of the Atlantic that show an inverse relationship between immigration and criminality - i.e. immigrants commit less crime than native born citizens: https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-murderers-texas-2013-2022# https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-murde... Is that truly not the case in France? I'd be curious as to the results of a study comparing this effect across both countries.
    - bananalychee 2y ago
      Crime rates from immigrant populations are highly dependent on where the immigrants come from, and the US tends to do a better job at integration than European countries in recent years. Not that the US did not experience problems with immigrant crime from South America, but it is much worse in Europe, notably with immigrants from the Middle East. I think the baseline crime rate in the US was also higher than it was in European countries, before mass immigration policies kicked in.
      - anthk 2y ago
        The US is an ocean way from Middle East. What did you expect? If the US imported inmigrants from war zones, (like Mexico with narcos but far worse), California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas... would be shitting bricks today.
        mariusor 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure that the biggest numbers of immigrants in those states come exactly from that "war zone" that you think Mexico is.
    - rvnx 2y ago
      It's illegal to do such studies in France and to talk about them
  - eastbound 2y ago
berkes 2y ago
You could , and should, make the point about criminals and drug dealing affecting "normal citizens" without using imprecise and often wrong terms like immigrants. Yes. Many people feel unsafe, are affected by crime, or feel they are. Yes, people are afraid. Whether they are, statistically actually more unsafe, or not (most often aren't) matters little. If people have a problem with criminal behaviour or abuse, they have a problem with criminal behaviour or abuse. Regardless of where that comes from. Being beaten up by three Moroccans hurts just as much as being beaten up by three Frenchies whose great grandparents were also born in Marseille. It honestly doesn't help. First and foremost because many people will now dismiss the problems you may adress, simply because they are drowned in what appears racism, or at least ignorance.
- achenet 2y ago
  The thing is, the criminals do tend, and when I say "tend to" I mean "as far as I can tell, always are, although obviously just because I've not seen a counter example doesn't mean one doesn't exist" always be from similar ethnic groups. You've heard of the Italian Mafia? A criminal organization where ethnicity was literally a criteria for admission? Or, while not criminal, Jewish diamond merchants? Having a specific ethnic group specialize in a certain type of commercial activity isn't new. When that activity is trafficking drugs from Morocco, against the wishes of the local state, it's not surprising that the organization is largely composed of people who happen to share a common language, culture and ethnicity with Morroco. And if you're wondering why Morocco, well that's where all the hashish is grown. You've possibly been to "Chinatown" in a large city (say NYC). Now remplace east Asian immigration with North Africa immigration, replace the stereotypical restaurants and dry cleaners with drug dealing, and you have north Marseille. This unfortunate fact actually drives a lot of the racism. If you ignore it because it sounds racist well... The problem will remain, refusing to accept that there currently is an ethnic group that dominates illegal drug trafficking in a certain place, due to ties with the source of the drug doesn't make it any less true. Similarly, of you're smuggling cocaine into the US, speaking Spanish is a really good trait to have. Because the country that produces most of the cocaine speaks that language.
  - berkes 2y ago

eastbound 2y ago

[flagged]

dadoum 2y ago
> Your lack of empathy for others is always baffling for me. “I haven’t had problems with occupants, therefore they are not a problem.” They just said that they hadn't observed the same thing in their entourage. > Some had to crawl, bleeding on the floor, reciting to Coran. Are you referring to a recent event in France? Can't find any with the query "réciter coran otage". That quote makes France look like a war zone. > Some pupils grow under oppression, having to donate their lunch meal every day. > Some had to give their mobile phone. Are you making a link with "occupants" from the first sentence? Because bullying and assault didn't wait for immigration to exist, and criminality in general is caused by so much factors that makes the analysis harder than just looking at correlations. > some people are thrown in the Seine. Search for "jeté dans la Seine" (thrown in the Seine): - [20 years ago] Brahim Bouraam: murder of a Moroccan in Paris by a far-right militant [0] - [5 days ago] A jogger thrown into the Seine by a drunken German, another bystander injured [1] I don't think you referred to those actions. > But as long as you give occupants priority and respect in your life, and you respect them Nobody said something remotely related to that in the thread. > don’t say anything about the occupied zone ... I hope that you can still find some enjoyment in the dystopian alternate reality you're experiencing. PS: I lived in a hot district. I haven't been assaulted but I know someone who has been. It hasn't been perpetrated by an immigrant, and nothing happened after. He hasn't been caught, police closed the case, and life went on. It makes me think the problem here is not related to immigrants. But that's anecdata anyway. A study apparently found no correlation between immigration and criminality [2]. [0]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Brahim_Bouraam https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Brahim_Bouraam [1]: https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_divers/faits-divers-paris/4143877-20250317-paris-joggeur-jete-seine-allemand-ivre-autre-passant-blessee https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_divers/faits-divers-paris/414... [2]: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/04/23/no-study-has-found-any-effect-of-immigration-on-criminality_6023985_7.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/04/23/no-study...
- anonym29 2y ago
  I find your linked study intriguing, as an American who's aware of studies on my side of the Atlantic that show an inverse relationship between immigration and criminality - i.e. immigrants commit less crime than native born citizens: https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-murderers-texas-2013-2022# https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-murde... Is that truly not the case in France? I'd be curious as to the results of a study comparing this effect across both countries.
  - bananalychee 2y ago
    Crime rates from immigrant populations are highly dependent on where the immigrants come from, and the US tends to do a better job at integration than European countries in recent years. Not that the US did not experience problems with immigrant crime from South America, but it is much worse in Europe, notably with immigrants from the Middle East. I think the baseline crime rate in the US was also higher than it was in European countries, before mass immigration policies kicked in.
    - anthk 2y ago
      The US is an ocean way from Middle East. What did you expect? If the US imported inmigrants from war zones, (like Mexico with narcos but far worse), California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas... would be shitting bricks today.
      - mariusor 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure that the biggest numbers of immigrants in those states come exactly from that "war zone" that you think Mexico is.
  - rvnx 2y ago
    It's illegal to do such studies in France and to talk about them
- eastbound 2y ago

berkes 2y ago

You could , and should, make the point about criminals and drug dealing affecting "normal citizens" without using imprecise and often wrong terms like immigrants. Yes. Many people feel unsafe, are affected by crime, or feel they are. Yes, people are afraid. Whether they are, statistically actually more unsafe, or not (most often aren't) matters little. If people have a problem with criminal behaviour or abuse, they have a problem with criminal behaviour or abuse. Regardless of where that comes from. Being beaten up by three Moroccans hurts just as much as being beaten up by three Frenchies whose great grandparents were also born in Marseille. It honestly doesn't help. First and foremost because many people will now dismiss the problems you may adress, simply because they are drowned in what appears racism, or at least ignorance.

achenet 2y ago
The thing is, the criminals do tend, and when I say "tend to" I mean "as far as I can tell, always are, although obviously just because I've not seen a counter example doesn't mean one doesn't exist" always be from similar ethnic groups. You've heard of the Italian Mafia? A criminal organization where ethnicity was literally a criteria for admission? Or, while not criminal, Jewish diamond merchants? Having a specific ethnic group specialize in a certain type of commercial activity isn't new. When that activity is trafficking drugs from Morocco, against the wishes of the local state, it's not surprising that the organization is largely composed of people who happen to share a common language, culture and ethnicity with Morroco. And if you're wondering why Morocco, well that's where all the hashish is grown. You've possibly been to "Chinatown" in a large city (say NYC). Now remplace east Asian immigration with North Africa immigration, replace the stereotypical restaurants and dry cleaners with drug dealing, and you have north Marseille. This unfortunate fact actually drives a lot of the racism. If you ignore it because it sounds racist well... The problem will remain, refusing to accept that there currently is an ethnic group that dominates illegal drug trafficking in a certain place, due to ties with the source of the drug doesn't make it any less true. Similarly, of you're smuggling cocaine into the US, speaking Spanish is a really good trait to have. Because the country that produces most of the cocaine speaks that language.
- berkes 2y ago