5 ms·

I admit ambiguity, but I meant 180 opposite. I believe France is and has been the top at individual freedom. That perception is an important reason I'm there, s

I admit ambiguity, but I meant 180 opposite. I believe France is and has been the top at individual freedom. That perception is an important reason I'm there, so I acted on it.

Cyph0n 2y ago
How can you say that when individuals are not allowed to show religious symbols or wear religious clothing in any government-affiliated setting? I don’t see how state-enforced irreligiousness (secularism/laicite) doesn’t completely contradict with individual freedoms.
- buybackoff 2y ago
  Cela s'appelle la laïcité. If you have problems with that there are so many 3rd world countries that care about medieval stuff more than development. I think laïcité is one of the coolest words/concept, France should only really enforce it further.
  - Cyph0n 2y ago
    Whatever floats your boat. But claiming that France is the pinnacle of maintaining individual freedoms contradicts with a nanny state that polices religious expression. You can’t have it both ways.
    - buybackoff 2y ago
      It's water that floats anyone's boats. It's the physics+linguistics. The problems start when people try to substitute the meaning of things.
    - realusername 2y ago
      Keeping religion out of the state is a good thing, the previous statu quo in France before that used to be that the Christians were policing everybody. We can see now in the US how not having this concept is creating a lot of social issues with Cristian fundamentalists running the state.
      - whatevertrevor 2y ago
        There's a significant difference between separating the state's concerns from religious dogma, and restricting an individual's ability to dress in accordance with their belief system. I have wondered if jeans would be banned in France if one made a religion with only wearing jeans in public as its dogma. And before I get any questions about it, I say this as a lifelong atheist.
ur-whale 2y ago
> I believe France is and has been the top at individual freedom. You could not be more wrong. However, I am not surprised you would believe that: I have quite a few French friends who believe the exact same thing because they've all drunk the kool-aid that was served to them during their school years, namely that France is the country who invented human rights, freedom of speech, etc... Nothing could be further from the truth (England is a way better approximation to "invented free speech" than France ever was, where do you think Voltaire discovered what Freedom really meant if not during his exile years in England?). Even today, your average Frenchmen is dead convinced that freedom of speech in France is one of the best in the world and a fundamental value of French society. If you compare it to Iran or North Korea, fair enough. But then go look up what happened to a guy named Dieudonne if you want a perfect example of there being no freedom of speech whatsoever in France. Compared to global standards, France is really not high on the individual freedom / freedom of speech scales, but then you have to be able to properly compare things to make vaguely correct calls on such things. And if you have never left your country nor master English well enough to understand what goes on outside your tiny cultural bubble, and you have been indoctrinated by the French school system since day one, it's a perfectly normal thing to believe.
- MITSardine 2y ago
  Could you give concrete examples of situations where your freedom is restricted in France?
  - ur-whale 2y ago
    > Could you give concrete examples I thought I already did, but here it is again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieudonn%C3%A9_M%27bala_M%27bala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieudonn%C3%A9_M%27bala_M%27ba... The dude kept on saying completely outrageous things on public channels, none of which should have been an issue in a country with normal free speech laws. Here's another interesting case, where a TV channel was outright shutdown because they said things that the powers that be didn't like. I guess Moscow isn't that far east of France: https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/french-tv-channel-shutdown-causes-outcry-right-2025-02-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/french-tv-cha... Here's another interesting aspect of life in the land of stinky cheese: cash is by law legal tender, as in: https://www.banque-france.fr/en/monetary-strategy/means-of-payment/national-cash-management-policy/acceptability https://www.banque-france.fr/en/monetary-strategy/means-of-p... However, it is illegal to buy anything with cash if the transaction is more than 1k euros: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999?lang=en https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999?... These are just off the top of my head, the list is very long and quite sad.

I admit ambiguity, but I meant 180 opposite. I believe France is and has been the top at individual freedom. That perception is an important reason I'm there, so I acted on it.

Cyph0n 2y ago

How can you say that when individuals are not allowed to show religious symbols or wear religious clothing in any government-affiliated setting? I don’t see how state-enforced irreligiousness (secularism/laicite) doesn’t completely contradict with individual freedoms.

buybackoff 2y ago
Cela s'appelle la laïcité. If you have problems with that there are so many 3rd world countries that care about medieval stuff more than development. I think laïcité is one of the coolest words/concept, France should only really enforce it further.
- Cyph0n 2y ago
  Whatever floats your boat. But claiming that France is the pinnacle of maintaining individual freedoms contradicts with a nanny state that polices religious expression. You can’t have it both ways.
  - buybackoff 2y ago
    It's water that floats anyone's boats. It's the physics+linguistics. The problems start when people try to substitute the meaning of things.
  - realusername 2y ago
    Keeping religion out of the state is a good thing, the previous statu quo in France before that used to be that the Christians were policing everybody. We can see now in the US how not having this concept is creating a lot of social issues with Cristian fundamentalists running the state.
    - whatevertrevor 2y ago
      There's a significant difference between separating the state's concerns from religious dogma, and restricting an individual's ability to dress in accordance with their belief system. I have wondered if jeans would be banned in France if one made a religion with only wearing jeans in public as its dogma. And before I get any questions about it, I say this as a lifelong atheist.

ur-whale 2y ago

> I believe France is and has been the top at individual freedom. You could not be more wrong. However, I am not surprised you would believe that: I have quite a few French friends who believe the exact same thing because they've all drunk the kool-aid that was served to them during their school years, namely that France is the country who invented human rights, freedom of speech, etc... Nothing could be further from the truth (England is a way better approximation to "invented free speech" than France ever was, where do you think Voltaire discovered what Freedom really meant if not during his exile years in England?). Even today, your average Frenchmen is dead convinced that freedom of speech in France is one of the best in the world and a fundamental value of French society. If you compare it to Iran or North Korea, fair enough. But then go look up what happened to a guy named Dieudonne if you want a perfect example of there being no freedom of speech whatsoever in France. Compared to global standards, France is really not high on the individual freedom / freedom of speech scales, but then you have to be able to properly compare things to make vaguely correct calls on such things. And if you have never left your country nor master English well enough to understand what goes on outside your tiny cultural bubble, and you have been indoctrinated by the French school system since day one, it's a perfectly normal thing to believe.

MITSardine 2y ago
Could you give concrete examples of situations where your freedom is restricted in France?
- ur-whale 2y ago
  > Could you give concrete examples I thought I already did, but here it is again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieudonn%C3%A9_M%27bala_M%27bala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieudonn%C3%A9_M%27bala_M%27ba... The dude kept on saying completely outrageous things on public channels, none of which should have been an issue in a country with normal free speech laws. Here's another interesting case, where a TV channel was outright shutdown because they said things that the powers that be didn't like. I guess Moscow isn't that far east of France: https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/french-tv-channel-shutdown-causes-outcry-right-2025-02-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/french-tv-cha... Here's another interesting aspect of life in the land of stinky cheese: cash is by law legal tender, as in: https://www.banque-france.fr/en/monetary-strategy/means-of-payment/national-cash-management-policy/acceptability https://www.banque-france.fr/en/monetary-strategy/means-of-p... However, it is illegal to buy anything with cash if the transaction is more than 1k euros: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999?lang=en https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999?... These are just off the top of my head, the list is very long and quite sad.