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Unlike other areas of the US, the vast majority of poor NYC residents do not own a car. The majority of NYC households don't own a car. Car owners have about do

Unlike other areas of the US, the vast majority of poor NYC residents do not own a car. The majority of NYC households don't own a car. Car owners have about double the income of non-car owners. Of those that do own a car, the majority do not use it for commuting. If you haven't lived in NYC it's a bit weird to wrap your head around vehicle ownership vs public transportation here. The subways run 24/7. Manhattan, the borough with the highest income, has the lowest vehicle ownership at about 22%. Staten Island, the second richest borough, has the highest vehicle ownership at about 84%.

trollbridge 2y ago
Low income workers in NYC don’t generally live in NYC at all, though. They commute in, and often via car with several other people, from places like New Jersey, and share costs like a parking spot. A typical parking spot is $500-$800. Spread amongst 4 workers, that’s “only” $125 a month, plus the tolls, fuel etc., and then is a significantly higher quality of life (mostly due to a shorter commute time) than trying to take public transit, particularly from places poor people live. (They could obviously use high occupancy vehicle lanes which makes a big difference going from NJ->NYC.) I used to park alongside quite a few people doing this. Everything from construction workers to people working in restaurants. Rents were much cheaper if they were willing to drive an hour.
- danny_codes 2y ago
  So reducing car dependency is a huge boon then. Incentivizing investment in public transit would safe the save these commuters a lot of cash. You’re conflating short term change with long term change. In the long term reducing car dependency is hugely beneficial
  - autoexec 2y ago
    charging people more money to drive doesn't reduce car dependency, it just punishes the people who are forced to deal with the fact that they are dependent on cars.
    - acdha 2y ago
      It absolutely reduces car dependency by giving better transit service. Every story about this for months has noted large improvements in bus speeds and reliability, and that is before any of the capital improvements kick in, all of which reduces the number of people who feel they need to take on the high expense of car ownership to avoid being late to work.
- CPLX 2y ago
  No, they don’t. This story you’re telling is ridiculous. There are not significant numbers of low income people driving to Manhattan below 60th street in carpool groups with monthly parking spaces. To the extent there’s any truth to this at all people drive to suburban bus and train stations from very far out. That’s definitely a thing. But even if what you are saying is true the congestion pricing doesn’t change the math much for each person when split four ways.
- acdha 2y ago
  Care to cite your numbers? CSS studied the outer boroughs and found roughly 4% driving into Manhattan versus 57% taking transit, with a 50:1 ratio of low income workers benefiting from the congestion charge versus paying it. https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-borough-new-yorkers-poverty-data-analysis https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-bo... https://www.replicahq.com/post/whos-paying-the-literal-and-metaphorical-toll-mapping-the-congestion-pricing-commute https://www.replicahq.com/post/whos-paying-the-literal-and-m... > Compared to those who take transit, those who drive into the zone have an average household income 11% higher ($189K vs. $171K) and median income 15% higher ($136K vs. $114K). There are some poor people who drive in, but it’s a tiny fraction of the total and there is a generous discount for them. It’s almost certain that transit improvements paid for by the mostly affluent drivers will help a fair number of them stop driving to work, too, and losing that expense is a big financial win.
  - trollbridge 2y ago
    My citation is “observing people getting in and out of cars”. I suspect people carpooling are getting classified as “transit” in your data.
jampekka 2y ago
> the vast majority of poor NYC residents do not own a car. And probably quite a bit larger majority after a while of congestion pricing.
- Tostino 2y ago
  All the better if they have even cheaper/faster/more reliable options for transportation available. A car is a giant money sink when poor, even when not in NYC.
  - jampekka 2y ago
    And a car is even nicer in NYC now if you're not poor! Also AFAIK apart from being a bit better on schedule, there have been no material improvements for public transportation.

trollbridge 2y ago

Low income workers in NYC don’t generally live in NYC at all, though. They commute in, and often via car with several other people, from places like New Jersey, and share costs like a parking spot. A typical parking spot is $500-$800. Spread amongst 4 workers, that’s “only” $125 a month, plus the tolls, fuel etc., and then is a significantly higher quality of life (mostly due to a shorter commute time) than trying to take public transit, particularly from places poor people live. (They could obviously use high occupancy vehicle lanes which makes a big difference going from NJ->NYC.) I used to park alongside quite a few people doing this. Everything from construction workers to people working in restaurants. Rents were much cheaper if they were willing to drive an hour.

danny_codes 2y ago
So reducing car dependency is a huge boon then. Incentivizing investment in public transit would safe the save these commuters a lot of cash. You’re conflating short term change with long term change. In the long term reducing car dependency is hugely beneficial
- autoexec 2y ago
  charging people more money to drive doesn't reduce car dependency, it just punishes the people who are forced to deal with the fact that they are dependent on cars.
  - acdha 2y ago
    It absolutely reduces car dependency by giving better transit service. Every story about this for months has noted large improvements in bus speeds and reliability, and that is before any of the capital improvements kick in, all of which reduces the number of people who feel they need to take on the high expense of car ownership to avoid being late to work.
CPLX 2y ago
No, they don’t. This story you’re telling is ridiculous. There are not significant numbers of low income people driving to Manhattan below 60th street in carpool groups with monthly parking spaces. To the extent there’s any truth to this at all people drive to suburban bus and train stations from very far out. That’s definitely a thing. But even if what you are saying is true the congestion pricing doesn’t change the math much for each person when split four ways.
acdha 2y ago
Care to cite your numbers? CSS studied the outer boroughs and found roughly 4% driving into Manhattan versus 57% taking transit, with a 50:1 ratio of low income workers benefiting from the congestion charge versus paying it. https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-borough-new-yorkers-poverty-data-analysis https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-bo... https://www.replicahq.com/post/whos-paying-the-literal-and-metaphorical-toll-mapping-the-congestion-pricing-commute https://www.replicahq.com/post/whos-paying-the-literal-and-m... > Compared to those who take transit, those who drive into the zone have an average household income 11% higher ($189K vs. $171K) and median income 15% higher ($136K vs. $114K). There are some poor people who drive in, but it’s a tiny fraction of the total and there is a generous discount for them. It’s almost certain that transit improvements paid for by the mostly affluent drivers will help a fair number of them stop driving to work, too, and losing that expense is a big financial win.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  My citation is “observing people getting in and out of cars”. I suspect people carpooling are getting classified as “transit” in your data.

jampekka 2y ago

> the vast majority of poor NYC residents do not own a car. And probably quite a bit larger majority after a while of congestion pricing.

Tostino 2y ago
All the better if they have even cheaper/faster/more reliable options for transportation available. A car is a giant money sink when poor, even when not in NYC.
- jampekka 2y ago
  And a car is even nicer in NYC now if you're not poor! Also AFAIK apart from being a bit better on schedule, there have been no material improvements for public transportation.