5 ms·

I'm not trying to make light of your experience, and I do appreciate that you care about people you have to look after deeply. However, I also don't think what

by h4ny 2y ago

I'm not trying to make light of your experience, and I do appreciate that you care about people you have to look after deeply. However, I also don't think what you described is professional with respect to being a manager. A manager's job is to balance the interest between stakeholders and their reports, make sure things happen as promised (and adjust scope when promise can't be met), and make sure everyone in their team grows (skill, remuneration, etc.). > Cancer/long-term illness, death in the family, miscarriages, etc all weigh heavily on my mind when something happens to one of my direct reports. These are not things that would affect you from being a good manager. That's just part of the job of being a manager. It's a different kind of problem, it's not necessarily heavier problems. It's unhelpful, or even narcissistic, to think that you're actually quietly taking on more burden for everyone without being appreciated. You should absolutely have empathy as a manager, but if your empathy is weighing on you instead of enabling you to be a better manager, then you're probably not doing a very good job as a manager. > Not asking for pity, but being a manager has a heavy emotional toll if you have even the slightest bit of empathy that I don't think most ICs appreciate fully. I disagree. That's just an excuse of not doing what you should be doing as a manager: manage things. See above. If you are an empathetic person, if you work in a team where people have/had "cancer/long-term illness, death in the family, miscarriages, etc.", then it's emotionally just as taxing whether you're an IC or a manager. In fact, if you can't manage your emotions and get what needs to be done done (damage control, repriortization, etc. to get things shipped), then you're not doing your job as a manager. Edit: feel free to downvote if you don't agree but much appreciated if you also leave a response to say why you disagree. Otherwise, I hope you feel good "punishing" people just because you feel differently but don't actually have a concrete argument against.

gmueckl 2y ago
I don't see anything narcissistic about being a normal human being with natural empathy for the people they work with. Managing people does require emotional stability and self control, though. ICs tend to automatically defer to their managers. Sometimes, this leads the ICs to misinterpret tiny reactions from their managers in completely unintended ways. I find that negative, emotionally charged reactions from managers are especially likely to lead to unintended reactions from their ICs. As an IC you try to not bring your personal life ups and does to the job. This is even more important as a manager.
- h4ny 2y ago
  > I don't see anything narcissistic about being a normal human being with natural empathy for the people they work with. I agree but that's not what I said. What I said was it's "unhelpful, or even narcissistic", for a manager to think that being empathetic as a manager is more emotionally taxing than an IC. > Managing people does require emotional stability and self control, though. It does. That's just being professional though. Being a good coworker in general requires emotional stability and self control. I'm not sure if you're trying to argue that a manager has to have much greater ability to do those than an IC since you seem to avoid saying that directly. > ICs tend to automatically defer to their managers. Sometimes, this leads the ICs to misinterpret tiny reactions from their managers in completely unintended ways. I find that negative, emotionally charged reactions from managers are especially likely to lead to unintended reactions from their ICs. Uh, the reverse sounds just about as true? I'm honestly not sure what the argument there is. > As an IC you try to not bring your personal life ups and does to the job. This is even more important as a manager. It's unclear from what you said why it's more important as a manager -- that's just what every professional should do at a workplace. Can you please elaborate?
  - gmueckl 2y ago
    As a manager, you are always implicitly communicating from a position of power. That changes what you can and cannot say. It's not very hard to understand once you experience it from a manager's perspective, but I don't think that I would have truly understood this exclusively from an IC's perspective, though.
    - h4ny 2y ago
      It's truly frightening for people who don't understand that well to be given the opportunity to mange people. As yobbo said it much better than me, "the part that is narcissistic is believing your empathy is uniquely taking a toll on you." It's impossible to have a conversation with people who only make reasonable-sounding statements that are irrelevant to the actual conversation. I'm out.
  - mmooss 2y ago
Juliate 2y ago
> You should absolutely have empathy as a manager, but if your empathy is weighing on you instead of enabling you to be a better manager, then you're probably not doing a very good job as a manager. That sounds... very peculiar, un-empathetic a point of view, like you are blaming someone for facing a difficult moment. Case in point, if you were to manage managers, and you had to tell that to one of your report facing such a situation... that would be, in that case, a fail in management on your part. You don't tell people in a tough spot to "toughen up", "not good for that role", not even in corporate environments. That's plain toxic. And inefficient (whereas you should be looking for a way to improve the situation/morale in some way, short term, and long term). So you give them the space to explore the situation, their feelings, and you support them to find their solutions. That's how you lead by example. Not by jumping to conclusion "oh... looks like someone's not fit for the role".
darkerside 2y ago
You make some good points, but it's important to keep in mind that as a manager, when you are task allocating and reprioritizing employee work, you need to keep your team's individual challenges in mind. The same way that a developer might need to manage server resources, or consider the impact of a new feature on future maintenance, a manager needs to solve the problem, except the resources available to solve the problem happen to be human. If a teammate has a sick parent, everyone on the team may choose to empathize. For the manager, every challenge that comes up, the parent sickness is one of your constraints to be dealt with. You need to compartmentalize sufficiently that you can think about this without stopping your work to solve the problem, but not so much that you treat the worker as a non-human resource. It can get a little tough.
jghn 2y ago
> then it's emotionally just as taxing whether you're an IC or a manager Speaking from experience, at least for me that's not true. For me the largest emotional toll is knowing that I'm responsible for dealing with whatever is happening. Sure, I might wind up taking the exact same actions as an IC. But as an IC I don't *have* to. And that helps, even if just enough.
Juliate 2y ago
> These are not things that would affect you from being a good manager. That's just part of the job of being a manager. It's a different kind of problem, it's not necessarily heavier problems. The crux of the issue is here I think. You, as a manager, a report, anything, have no say as to what anyone feels and how, and how it affects them. That’s purely on them. You may only be there for them. You may think for yourself, that these are not heavier problems than other ones. Others may think differently, and feel differently. That’s not more, or less professional (whatever that word has ever meant). Being a good manager is how one does manage their team, in the end and what the outcomes are. Not how one feels/struggles to do it internally or within the confidentiality that you have with your own manager. Manager to whom you should be able to openly share how you struggle yourself internally. Which requires trust. If, ever, your manager did retort « you’re showing you’re not fit for this » or came to moral judgement for just expressing your thoughts to them, this becomes a Whiplash situation you better get out of, because that manager will not have your back, ever. (of course, if the personal issues of the manager/report turn into problematic actions or omissions, that’s another topic)

by h4ny 2y ago

gmueckl 2y ago

I don't see anything narcissistic about being a normal human being with natural empathy for the people they work with. Managing people does require emotional stability and self control, though. ICs tend to automatically defer to their managers. Sometimes, this leads the ICs to misinterpret tiny reactions from their managers in completely unintended ways. I find that negative, emotionally charged reactions from managers are especially likely to lead to unintended reactions from their ICs. As an IC you try to not bring your personal life ups and does to the job. This is even more important as a manager.

h4ny 2y ago
> I don't see anything narcissistic about being a normal human being with natural empathy for the people they work with. I agree but that's not what I said. What I said was it's "unhelpful, or even narcissistic", for a manager to think that being empathetic as a manager is more emotionally taxing than an IC. > Managing people does require emotional stability and self control, though. It does. That's just being professional though. Being a good coworker in general requires emotional stability and self control. I'm not sure if you're trying to argue that a manager has to have much greater ability to do those than an IC since you seem to avoid saying that directly. > ICs tend to automatically defer to their managers. Sometimes, this leads the ICs to misinterpret tiny reactions from their managers in completely unintended ways. I find that negative, emotionally charged reactions from managers are especially likely to lead to unintended reactions from their ICs. Uh, the reverse sounds just about as true? I'm honestly not sure what the argument there is. > As an IC you try to not bring your personal life ups and does to the job. This is even more important as a manager. It's unclear from what you said why it's more important as a manager -- that's just what every professional should do at a workplace. Can you please elaborate?
- gmueckl 2y ago
  As a manager, you are always implicitly communicating from a position of power. That changes what you can and cannot say. It's not very hard to understand once you experience it from a manager's perspective, but I don't think that I would have truly understood this exclusively from an IC's perspective, though.
  - h4ny 2y ago
    It's truly frightening for people who don't understand that well to be given the opportunity to mange people. As yobbo said it much better than me, "the part that is narcissistic is believing your empathy is uniquely taking a toll on you." It's impossible to have a conversation with people who only make reasonable-sounding statements that are irrelevant to the actual conversation. I'm out.
- mmooss 2y ago

Juliate 2y ago

> You should absolutely have empathy as a manager, but if your empathy is weighing on you instead of enabling you to be a better manager, then you're probably not doing a very good job as a manager. That sounds... very peculiar, un-empathetic a point of view, like you are blaming someone for facing a difficult moment. Case in point, if you were to manage managers, and you had to tell that to one of your report facing such a situation... that would be, in that case, a fail in management on your part. You don't tell people in a tough spot to "toughen up", "not good for that role", not even in corporate environments. That's plain toxic. And inefficient (whereas you should be looking for a way to improve the situation/morale in some way, short term, and long term). So you give them the space to explore the situation, their feelings, and you support them to find their solutions. That's how you lead by example. Not by jumping to conclusion "oh... looks like someone's not fit for the role".

darkerside 2y ago

You make some good points, but it's important to keep in mind that as a manager, when you are task allocating and reprioritizing employee work, you need to keep your team's individual challenges in mind. The same way that a developer might need to manage server resources, or consider the impact of a new feature on future maintenance, a manager needs to solve the problem, except the resources available to solve the problem happen to be human. If a teammate has a sick parent, everyone on the team may choose to empathize. For the manager, every challenge that comes up, the parent sickness is one of your constraints to be dealt with. You need to compartmentalize sufficiently that you can think about this without stopping your work to solve the problem, but not so much that you treat the worker as a non-human resource. It can get a little tough.

jghn 2y ago

> then it's emotionally just as taxing whether you're an IC or a manager Speaking from experience, at least for me that's not true. For me the largest emotional toll is knowing that I'm responsible for dealing with whatever is happening. Sure, I might wind up taking the exact same actions as an IC. But as an IC I don't *have* to. And that helps, even if just enough.

Juliate 2y ago

> These are not things that would affect you from being a good manager. That's just part of the job of being a manager. It's a different kind of problem, it's not necessarily heavier problems. The crux of the issue is here I think. You, as a manager, a report, anything, have no say as to what anyone feels and how, and how it affects them. That’s purely on them. You may only be there for them. You may think for yourself, that these are not heavier problems than other ones. Others may think differently, and feel differently. That’s not more, or less professional (whatever that word has ever meant). Being a good manager is how one does manage their team, in the end and what the outcomes are. Not how one feels/struggles to do it internally or within the confidentiality that you have with your own manager. Manager to whom you should be able to openly share how you struggle yourself internally. Which requires trust. If, ever, your manager did retort « you’re showing you’re not fit for this » or came to moral judgement for just expressing your thoughts to them, this becomes a Whiplash situation you better get out of, because that manager will not have your back, ever. (of course, if the personal issues of the manager/report turn into problematic actions or omissions, that’s another topic)