3 ms·

Never talk to police, always ask for a lawyer.

by bastardoperator 2y ago

jimbob45 2y ago
Does that advice hold true outside of the US?
- cedilla 2y ago
  It's always a good idea to ask for a lawyer (and to demand that the embassy of your home country gets informed). However, the consequences of not talking can vary wildly. In some countries, police might torture you. Some countries might hold silence against you or even punish you for withholding exculpatory information.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    > In some countries, police might torture you. Yeah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homan_Square_facility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homan_Square_facility
    - bilbo0s 2y ago
      True. Police use torture even here in the US.
    - FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago
      Also remember outside the US, there's limited to no protection against repeated prosecution. Only 50-ish countries have protections against "double jeopardy" written into their constitutions and there's lots of exclusions. Italy is infamous for trying people over and over for the same offense until they get a conviction.
      - giraffe_lady 2y ago
        I think these are just slightly different approaches to the same goals of carceral malfeasance. You don't need to try someone more than once if you can torture a confession out of them. You don't need to torture a confession out of someone if you can try them as many times as you want. Cops and prosecutors will use the tools available to them, the specifics of the tools varying a lot by local history and governance traditions.
      - cedilla 2y ago
        Italy does have protection from repeated prosecution as a fundamental right (not least due to the directly binding charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union). And as the US population currently finds out, what's written in a constitution is not worth much when there is inadequate rule of law (and the US constitution offers comparatively few protections as is).
- reverendsteveii 2y ago
  I can't imagine a place where it wouldn't hold true. You may or may not get the lawyer you request but a police interview is never gonna be about anything other than getting you to say something that will get you convicted of one or many crimes.
  - rvnx 2y ago
    Example: in France if you get caught with cannabis and get to the stage where you get into a police interview, it's the police that recommends to the public prosecutor what to do next. Usually the public prosecutor follows the recommendations of the police. So you can end up having no troubles, in exchange of giving them useful information (e.g. to track down the dealer) even if it's incriminating you. It's informal, but it exists. It's a gamble (though there is an official status as well: "repenti")
    - reverendsteveii 2y ago
      That's supposed to be how it works in America as well, but realistically what happens is they overcharge and then leverage your fear about the unreliability of the jury process to get you to confess regardless of guilt. I don't know how to determine whether that's similar with French police but I think you're giving them a lot of benefit of the doubt in assuming that this only works in the most innocent way possible.
- hluska 2y ago
  As a general rule, research that before you go anywhere. In Canada, for example, suspects have the right not to make any statements. In China, suspects have the right not to answer “irrelevant questions.” It’s also very important to remember that some countries have complicated relationships with other countries/races/religions. Your mileage may vary depending on where you’re from and the colour of your skin. As an example, I wouldn’t particularly want to have to exercise my right not to make statements in Canada if I were of indigenous descent. Same in the United States if I was Black. And finally, it may be even more important to remember that you’re unlikely to receive consular assistance at the time of arrest. Rather, there could be a delay while people with guns threaten to shoot you with them. It’s a very good idea to do all your research ahead of time and have timed check ins with people you care about whenever you’re going to a different country. It’s also a good idea to memorize at least three key phone numbers within your country’s foreign affairs, particularly ones that will work toll free or accept charges. Even the concept of ‘a phone call’ varies between countries. As an example, I don’t know if Canadian police are required to let someone call out of country. I’m sure that many would but I don’t know about any specific policy.
  - TeeMassive 2y ago
    You should stop taking your information from movies and media headlines. You are going to get people in trouble! > I wouldn’t particularly want to have to exercise my right not to make statements in Canada if I were of indigenous descent. Why is that? Seems like you're going to get a lot of natives in trouble with that kind of advice. Never heard lawyers saying that in criminal Common Law countries for any minority.
    - hluska 2y ago
      What are you talking about? The last time there were any statistics collected, an indigenous person in my province had a higher chance of completing a stint in a federal penitentiary than of completing an undergraduate degree. That’s what I’m talking about. You could use Google for three minutes instead of being so rude. You should try it.
ziddoap 2y ago
One of the classic videos on the subject by Law Professor (and former criminal defense attorney) James Duane, accompanied by a police officer that concurs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE And accompanying paper: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1998119 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1998119
- Diederich 2y ago
  I watch this video at least once a year, and make my immediate family do the same. Everyone in the United States should watch this video, or something similar, on a regular schedule. As great as the first part is, I actually think the second part, with officer George Bruch, is even more important. It's not as smooth, it's not flashy. Officer Bruch comes across as just a regular guy who wants to help you. I've long viewed the world primarily through the lens of incentives and motivations. When officer Bruch is talking to you in a little room, you just want to tell your story, get it off your chest, and he makes it very, very easy to do that. In fact, if the roles of these two guys were reversed, and professor Duane, with his slick and fun personality, was interviewing you, you'd likely trust him less. Even though it feels like it, officer Bruch is not your friend. He's not on your side. It doesn't feel like it, but his incentives and motivations are mostly in conflict with yours, whether you are guilty or innocent.
hluska 2y ago
My dad was a police officer and I grew up in the age of AIDS hysteria. Without any hyperbole, my dad spent more time/words drilling in how to protect myself from police than from AIDS. Granted, I had about as much sex appeal as a paper bag full of day old vomit so maybe that was more about probability of facing risk than actual risk. :)
tracker1 2y ago
And be careful where/when/how you say "OK" in response to any statement from police.

Never talk to police, always ask for a lawyer.

jimbob45 2y ago

Does that advice hold true outside of the US?

cedilla 2y ago
It's always a good idea to ask for a lawyer (and to demand that the embassy of your home country gets informed). However, the consequences of not talking can vary wildly. In some countries, police might torture you. Some countries might hold silence against you or even punish you for withholding exculpatory information.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  > In some countries, police might torture you. Yeah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homan_Square_facility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homan_Square_facility
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    True. Police use torture even here in the US.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago
    Also remember outside the US, there's limited to no protection against repeated prosecution. Only 50-ish countries have protections against "double jeopardy" written into their constitutions and there's lots of exclusions. Italy is infamous for trying people over and over for the same offense until they get a conviction.
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      I think these are just slightly different approaches to the same goals of carceral malfeasance. You don't need to try someone more than once if you can torture a confession out of them. You don't need to torture a confession out of someone if you can try them as many times as you want. Cops and prosecutors will use the tools available to them, the specifics of the tools varying a lot by local history and governance traditions.
    - cedilla 2y ago
      Italy does have protection from repeated prosecution as a fundamental right (not least due to the directly binding charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union). And as the US population currently finds out, what's written in a constitution is not worth much when there is inadequate rule of law (and the US constitution offers comparatively few protections as is).
reverendsteveii 2y ago
I can't imagine a place where it wouldn't hold true. You may or may not get the lawyer you request but a police interview is never gonna be about anything other than getting you to say something that will get you convicted of one or many crimes.
- rvnx 2y ago
  Example: in France if you get caught with cannabis and get to the stage where you get into a police interview, it's the police that recommends to the public prosecutor what to do next. Usually the public prosecutor follows the recommendations of the police. So you can end up having no troubles, in exchange of giving them useful information (e.g. to track down the dealer) even if it's incriminating you. It's informal, but it exists. It's a gamble (though there is an official status as well: "repenti")
  - reverendsteveii 2y ago
    That's supposed to be how it works in America as well, but realistically what happens is they overcharge and then leverage your fear about the unreliability of the jury process to get you to confess regardless of guilt. I don't know how to determine whether that's similar with French police but I think you're giving them a lot of benefit of the doubt in assuming that this only works in the most innocent way possible.
hluska 2y ago
As a general rule, research that before you go anywhere. In Canada, for example, suspects have the right not to make any statements. In China, suspects have the right not to answer “irrelevant questions.” It’s also very important to remember that some countries have complicated relationships with other countries/races/religions. Your mileage may vary depending on where you’re from and the colour of your skin. As an example, I wouldn’t particularly want to have to exercise my right not to make statements in Canada if I were of indigenous descent. Same in the United States if I was Black. And finally, it may be even more important to remember that you’re unlikely to receive consular assistance at the time of arrest. Rather, there could be a delay while people with guns threaten to shoot you with them. It’s a very good idea to do all your research ahead of time and have timed check ins with people you care about whenever you’re going to a different country. It’s also a good idea to memorize at least three key phone numbers within your country’s foreign affairs, particularly ones that will work toll free or accept charges. Even the concept of ‘a phone call’ varies between countries. As an example, I don’t know if Canadian police are required to let someone call out of country. I’m sure that many would but I don’t know about any specific policy.
- TeeMassive 2y ago
  You should stop taking your information from movies and media headlines. You are going to get people in trouble! > I wouldn’t particularly want to have to exercise my right not to make statements in Canada if I were of indigenous descent. Why is that? Seems like you're going to get a lot of natives in trouble with that kind of advice. Never heard lawyers saying that in criminal Common Law countries for any minority.
  - hluska 2y ago
    What are you talking about? The last time there were any statistics collected, an indigenous person in my province had a higher chance of completing a stint in a federal penitentiary than of completing an undergraduate degree. That’s what I’m talking about. You could use Google for three minutes instead of being so rude. You should try it.

ziddoap 2y ago

One of the classic videos on the subject by Law Professor (and former criminal defense attorney) James Duane, accompanied by a police officer that concurs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE And accompanying paper: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1998119 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1998119

Diederich 2y ago
I watch this video at least once a year, and make my immediate family do the same. Everyone in the United States should watch this video, or something similar, on a regular schedule. As great as the first part is, I actually think the second part, with officer George Bruch, is even more important. It's not as smooth, it's not flashy. Officer Bruch comes across as just a regular guy who wants to help you. I've long viewed the world primarily through the lens of incentives and motivations. When officer Bruch is talking to you in a little room, you just want to tell your story, get it off your chest, and he makes it very, very easy to do that. In fact, if the roles of these two guys were reversed, and professor Duane, with his slick and fun personality, was interviewing you, you'd likely trust him less. Even though it feels like it, officer Bruch is not your friend. He's not on your side. It doesn't feel like it, but his incentives and motivations are mostly in conflict with yours, whether you are guilty or innocent.

hluska 2y ago

My dad was a police officer and I grew up in the age of AIDS hysteria. Without any hyperbole, my dad spent more time/words drilling in how to protect myself from police than from AIDS. Granted, I had about as much sex appeal as a paper bag full of day old vomit so maybe that was more about probability of facing risk than actual risk. :)

tracker1 2y ago

And be careful where/when/how you say "OK" in response to any statement from police.