4 ms·

Music pretty squarely fits that bill. We used to beam it out over the air, now we transmit it through the internet, but everyone has always expected it to be fr

Music pretty squarely fits that bill. We used to beam it out over the air, now we transmit it through the internet, but everyone has always expected it to be free. And musicians are still expected to make a ton of money off of their music, if a lot of people like it.

SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
I've taken to buying CDs again. I still stream, but for artists I like I at least own the CD and might pick up some merch too because the reality is that only the big artists make a ton of money, or even any money at all.
- maccard 2y ago
  I’m in a hobby band, and Spotify is important but we’ve made absolutely nothing from it with a few thousand listens. 50 people buy our album digitally and we have enough to record another track.
  - ljf 2y ago
    Great to hear some people are buying - I discover a lot of music through spotify (more through instagram to be honest) just wish more of the bands I like would play near me!
  - crtasm 2y ago
    Assuming you have a Bandcamp store, have their zero fees Friday events been helpful to your band?
    - maccard 2y ago
      I had a look and it doesn’t seem to. There’s basically no tail on our last release so what we actually need is more eyeballs, which means making more content. The marketplace is saturated, like the App Store, so really our audience is coming from organic growth - playing gigs, and trying to get radio play or playlisted on Spotify
      - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
        I'm trying to think of a non-tacky/doxxing(if you care) way you could drop your band here so those interested could have a listen.
      - crtasm 2y ago
        Good luck and do keep reminding your fans to follow you on there, maybe you have a demo/live recording that could be released on the day if nothing new? I get a lot of emails from followed artists doing a temporary discount code but even just a "hey this is a great day to buy our music!" + reminding me of past releases makes it more likely I'll visit and buy something.
      - seec 2y ago
        That's the thing with music, there is so much supply that even if your stuff is good, you are up against plenty of other good stuff that there is no logic to something becoming more popular than the other. But if we are being realistic, if your stuff is truly great and unique, it will blow up. You just need to realize when you are not part of the great that you can do this just for your own pleasure, with no intention of success or anything like that, a hobby like any other...
  - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
    That's good to know. Yeah, I think Spotify is great for discovering new bands, but if you want them to keep going you gotta chip in. We need more than just the same top 40 artists in our world.
    - maccard 2y ago
      I don’t mind the homogenisation- I work in video games and benefit from it in that side. But you are right if you want it to succeed then you need to chip in. We sell an album for £7 digitally, or £30 for vinyl + digital, but it’s basically just donating to us to say “please keep recording stuff”. We’ve made more off selling a single vinyl than all our combined streaming income
    - nunez 2y ago
      i don't think spotify is good for discovery, unless "discovery" means "more of the same." i've taken to terrestrial radio for true discovery and bandcamp for digging into a genre.
      - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
        Honestly, I've found Youtube Music great for discovery. There's a lot of metal bands that are small enough that you can't find their album preorders on Amazon that I found only by following the musical recommendations down the rabbit hole. In my city smaller bands from Europe don't tend to get a lot of playtime on the radio.
        nunez 2y ago
        Interesting, especially since I really enjoy death/speed metal. I'll give this a try; thank you!
  - AbstractH24 2y ago
    Problem with buying a digital album is the same one as buying anything digitally rather than subscribing - since it's digital how do I know it'll stand the test of time? Does it have resale value? I don't know the answer, considering I don't want to find room to store CDs or carry around a discman, but that's the problem. Honestly, I would rather listen on Spotify and Venmo the band $5 towards their next track. Not sure what that looks like in a scaleable way.
- ljf 2y ago
  Merch is the way to go - if you really want to put money in the artists pocket. Went to see Pete Doherty not long ago, and bought some hand typed (and signed) lyrics sheets/art from him - felt like buying something quite personal.
- tuoret 2y ago
  CDs just feel so utterly pointless to me these days, since I can have the 100% identical content on a hard drive. Not trying to diss what you do, it's just a weird state of mind I entered once MP3 players and bluetooth speakers replaced CD players everywhere and I can't seem to shake it. Agree about the principle though, I try to buy merch at every gig I go to. Makes me feel slightly less bad about using Spotify.
  - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
    If you want to do MP3, bandcamp has digital downloads and days when 100% of the proceeds go to the artists. And I understand about the movement to digital - I typically rip the CDs as FLAC files and put them on a hard drive.
    - crtasm 2y ago
      And as well as MP3, buying on there gives you access to FLAC (+ multiple other lossless formats) for no extra cost.
  - palemoondrop 2y ago
    Having something physical is nice, though. You can have the exact bits off the disc and maybe even the artwork on your hard drive, but you can't hold the album and look at it all together - especially for more elaborate packaging than your standard jewel case with inserts. In my mind, having something physical and not implicitly copyable makes it feel more real. I'm in my own weird state of mind where I prioritize collecting physical over digital to the point of neglecting digital-only releases - digital is always going to have a copy somewhere I can listen to or purchase, but physical is limited and there's no guarantee I'll be able to get a copy later. This is probably an overly materialistic view, though.
    - catapart 2y ago
      I've been thinking that what I would like as far as "physical copy" of my media would be more like a card than anything that is actually used to play the media. Something like an NFC-equipped greeting card (maybe more than just a cover; pages can be inside for fun stuff that used to be in the CD inserts/jackets/etc), that I could set on a stand which would then interface with the card and start playing music. Pull the card, playback stops. You get the idea. I just think something like that would serve both purposes - look and display nicely, while giving a conversation piece and more content from the creators; but not prone to damage causing issues with playback and as durable as you want them to be (could be more like HID Prox cards; plastic instead of cardboard. Or even more "exotic" materials. Lots of room for creativity).
- rchaud 2y ago
  I am buying CDs too because vinyl keeps getting more expensive. However I do want artists to put more effort into making liner notes booklets.
crtasm 2y ago
Watch the sales scroll past on https://bandcamp.com/ https://bandcamp.com/ - a lot of people want to support artists and own music they enjoy.
- AbstractH24 2y ago
  TIL bandcamp and bandsintown are not the same thing.
lolinder 2y ago
Your last sentence is inaccurate, though: there's a broad understanding that only the absolute top performers will make money on music and everyone else will make an amount that rounds down to nothing. Software stands out in that even the median software developer is making about double the median salary in the market as a whole, all while the products of their efforts are expected to be free.
- rvogler 2y ago
  i think the analogy holds because there is also an established idea of software developers being passionate about what they do and hence create and maintain open source projects for free. never thought about it but music/musician <> software/developer is pretty isomorphic. also it simply isn't true that software developers make double the median - that's just true for the sv bias here and a few other hot spots.
  - 9rx 2y ago
    > also it simply isn't true that software developers make double the median - that's just true for the sv bias here and a few other hot spots. On a US national basis it is basically true. Median weekly earnings for full-time workers is $1,192[1]. Median hourly pay for a software developer is $62.58[2], which, assuming a 40 hour week, is $2,503.20. [1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
    - lolinder 2y ago
      Yes, this. SV and similar are even more extreme, but if you take all software engineers across the country and compare to the nationwide workforce, we make double the median. That may not be a fair comparison to the extent that software devs are concentrated in high CoL areas, though, so you don't see a ton of us out in the cheaper and poorer regions. The effect of that is somewhat ameliorated by taking the median instead of the mean, but not fully.
rchaud 2y ago
Was it free though? iTunes sold music for $1/song. Spotify and Pandora were ad-supported. People like me may have sailed the high seas as a teen in the 2000s, but those people didn't make up the majority of music listeners. Today, I only buy physical media and from Bandcamp. The younger generation seem happy to pay subscriptions for Spotify and Apple Music. I think this has to do with mobile OSes hiding filesystem access and banning P2P apps from the walled garden.

SketchySeaBeast 2y ago

I've taken to buying CDs again. I still stream, but for artists I like I at least own the CD and might pick up some merch too because the reality is that only the big artists make a ton of money, or even any money at all.

maccard 2y ago
I’m in a hobby band, and Spotify is important but we’ve made absolutely nothing from it with a few thousand listens. 50 people buy our album digitally and we have enough to record another track.
- ljf 2y ago
  Great to hear some people are buying - I discover a lot of music through spotify (more through instagram to be honest) just wish more of the bands I like would play near me!
- crtasm 2y ago
  Assuming you have a Bandcamp store, have their zero fees Friday events been helpful to your band?
  - maccard 2y ago
    I had a look and it doesn’t seem to. There’s basically no tail on our last release so what we actually need is more eyeballs, which means making more content. The marketplace is saturated, like the App Store, so really our audience is coming from organic growth - playing gigs, and trying to get radio play or playlisted on Spotify
    - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
      I'm trying to think of a non-tacky/doxxing(if you care) way you could drop your band here so those interested could have a listen.
    - crtasm 2y ago
      Good luck and do keep reminding your fans to follow you on there, maybe you have a demo/live recording that could be released on the day if nothing new? I get a lot of emails from followed artists doing a temporary discount code but even just a "hey this is a great day to buy our music!" + reminding me of past releases makes it more likely I'll visit and buy something.
    - seec 2y ago
      That's the thing with music, there is so much supply that even if your stuff is good, you are up against plenty of other good stuff that there is no logic to something becoming more popular than the other. But if we are being realistic, if your stuff is truly great and unique, it will blow up. You just need to realize when you are not part of the great that you can do this just for your own pleasure, with no intention of success or anything like that, a hobby like any other...
- SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
  That's good to know. Yeah, I think Spotify is great for discovering new bands, but if you want them to keep going you gotta chip in. We need more than just the same top 40 artists in our world.
  - maccard 2y ago
    I don’t mind the homogenisation- I work in video games and benefit from it in that side. But you are right if you want it to succeed then you need to chip in. We sell an album for £7 digitally, or £30 for vinyl + digital, but it’s basically just donating to us to say “please keep recording stuff”. We’ve made more off selling a single vinyl than all our combined streaming income
  - nunez 2y ago
    i don't think spotify is good for discovery, unless "discovery" means "more of the same." i've taken to terrestrial radio for true discovery and bandcamp for digging into a genre.
    - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
      Honestly, I've found Youtube Music great for discovery. There's a lot of metal bands that are small enough that you can't find their album preorders on Amazon that I found only by following the musical recommendations down the rabbit hole. In my city smaller bands from Europe don't tend to get a lot of playtime on the radio.
      - nunez 2y ago
        Interesting, especially since I really enjoy death/speed metal. I'll give this a try; thank you!
- AbstractH24 2y ago
  Problem with buying a digital album is the same one as buying anything digitally rather than subscribing - since it's digital how do I know it'll stand the test of time? Does it have resale value? I don't know the answer, considering I don't want to find room to store CDs or carry around a discman, but that's the problem. Honestly, I would rather listen on Spotify and Venmo the band $5 towards their next track. Not sure what that looks like in a scaleable way.
ljf 2y ago
Merch is the way to go - if you really want to put money in the artists pocket. Went to see Pete Doherty not long ago, and bought some hand typed (and signed) lyrics sheets/art from him - felt like buying something quite personal.
tuoret 2y ago
CDs just feel so utterly pointless to me these days, since I can have the 100% identical content on a hard drive. Not trying to diss what you do, it's just a weird state of mind I entered once MP3 players and bluetooth speakers replaced CD players everywhere and I can't seem to shake it. Agree about the principle though, I try to buy merch at every gig I go to. Makes me feel slightly less bad about using Spotify.
- SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
  If you want to do MP3, bandcamp has digital downloads and days when 100% of the proceeds go to the artists. And I understand about the movement to digital - I typically rip the CDs as FLAC files and put them on a hard drive.
  - crtasm 2y ago
    And as well as MP3, buying on there gives you access to FLAC (+ multiple other lossless formats) for no extra cost.
- palemoondrop 2y ago
  Having something physical is nice, though. You can have the exact bits off the disc and maybe even the artwork on your hard drive, but you can't hold the album and look at it all together - especially for more elaborate packaging than your standard jewel case with inserts. In my mind, having something physical and not implicitly copyable makes it feel more real. I'm in my own weird state of mind where I prioritize collecting physical over digital to the point of neglecting digital-only releases - digital is always going to have a copy somewhere I can listen to or purchase, but physical is limited and there's no guarantee I'll be able to get a copy later. This is probably an overly materialistic view, though.
  - catapart 2y ago
    I've been thinking that what I would like as far as "physical copy" of my media would be more like a card than anything that is actually used to play the media. Something like an NFC-equipped greeting card (maybe more than just a cover; pages can be inside for fun stuff that used to be in the CD inserts/jackets/etc), that I could set on a stand which would then interface with the card and start playing music. Pull the card, playback stops. You get the idea. I just think something like that would serve both purposes - look and display nicely, while giving a conversation piece and more content from the creators; but not prone to damage causing issues with playback and as durable as you want them to be (could be more like HID Prox cards; plastic instead of cardboard. Or even more "exotic" materials. Lots of room for creativity).
rchaud 2y ago
I am buying CDs too because vinyl keeps getting more expensive. However I do want artists to put more effort into making liner notes booklets.

crtasm 2y ago

Watch the sales scroll past on https://bandcamp.com/ https://bandcamp.com/ - a lot of people want to support artists and own music they enjoy.

AbstractH24 2y ago
TIL bandcamp and bandsintown are not the same thing.

lolinder 2y ago

Your last sentence is inaccurate, though: there's a broad understanding that only the absolute top performers will make money on music and everyone else will make an amount that rounds down to nothing. Software stands out in that even the median software developer is making about double the median salary in the market as a whole, all while the products of their efforts are expected to be free.

rvogler 2y ago
i think the analogy holds because there is also an established idea of software developers being passionate about what they do and hence create and maintain open source projects for free. never thought about it but music/musician <> software/developer is pretty isomorphic. also it simply isn't true that software developers make double the median - that's just true for the sv bias here and a few other hot spots.
- 9rx 2y ago
  > also it simply isn't true that software developers make double the median - that's just true for the sv bias here and a few other hot spots. On a US national basis it is basically true. Median weekly earnings for full-time workers is $1,192[1]. Median hourly pay for a software developer is $62.58[2], which, assuming a 40 hour week, is $2,503.20. [1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Yes, this. SV and similar are even more extreme, but if you take all software engineers across the country and compare to the nationwide workforce, we make double the median. That may not be a fair comparison to the extent that software devs are concentrated in high CoL areas, though, so you don't see a ton of us out in the cheaper and poorer regions. The effect of that is somewhat ameliorated by taking the median instead of the mean, but not fully.

rchaud 2y ago

Was it free though? iTunes sold music for $1/song. Spotify and Pandora were ad-supported. People like me may have sailed the high seas as a teen in the 2000s, but those people didn't make up the majority of music listeners. Today, I only buy physical media and from Bandcamp. The younger generation seem happy to pay subscriptions for Spotify and Apple Music. I think this has to do with mobile OSes hiding filesystem access and banning P2P apps from the walled garden.