4 ms·

General revenue is barely better. It's probably worse in many cases becase the elected part of the government can ask the thugs to seize harder to keep money c

General revenue is barely better. It's probably worse in many cases becase the elected part of the government can ask the thugs to seize harder to keep money coming in and then kick it back to them in the form of resource allocation or preferential treatment. That's how every speed trap town operates The only solution is to let the petty drug dealers get away with their cars and let the mob bosses get away with their mansions, etc but that requires making it socially unacceptable to support the status quo which means shunning those that do (i.e. basically what happened with racism in the 60s and homosexuality in the 00s) which is hard.

f_devd 2y ago
If the last few years should have showed anything it's how little the elected officials typically care about balancing, let alone create excess, budget.
- spwa4 2y ago
  Exactly. Even Trump, whose main policy promise was reducing spending, is currently 12% over budget (4% budget increase requested from congress + 8% that he's actually overspent so far)
- Yeul 2y ago
  Well there was that Tea Party movement. But the reality is that America is addicted to spending more money than comes in.
  - h2zizzle 2y ago
    The Tea Party was like Gamergate in that it was ostensibly about [overtaxation|ethics in gaming journalism], but was actually driven by [sexism against female games journalists|racism against President Obama], and swiftly co-opted by [the conservative establishment|the conservative establishment] as the right face of the post-OWS idpol wedge. (It would be foolish to think that the divided state of this country was a unilateral push.)
    - Izkata 2y ago
      That narrative was created by the journalists Gamergate was against, to deflect against their criticisms. It was never actually true.
      - potato3732842 2y ago
        And the real Grade A irony is that the same is true for the tea party and he took the post-hoc media spin hook line and sinker. If you take a step back you'll see that while tea-party, occupy wall street, Maga 1, mostly peaceful 2020/BLM and Maga 2 all take aim at different points in the establishment they're all firmly rooted in the discontent that every day people have with the amount the powers that be are lightening their pockets for causes they don't agree with. The grassroots movements will keep coming (and they will probably become more extreme too, and the powers that be will keep trying to co-opt and redirect them) until something changes.
        h2zizzle 2y ago
        My initial description was correct. Unfortunately, people like yourself subscribe to the outcome of years of commiseration that commenced with the aim of rationalizing what was clearly bigotry to even contemporary observers (I was one of those). It is correct that the grassroots movement that you mentioned had a core of righteous discontent. As mentioned, the right portions were co-opted quickly and refashioned into an arm of neoconservatism. The left was popularly (though not ideologically) discredited or otherwise neutered by reliance on reluctant liberal "allies". The proof is in the rightward march of American policy in the interim.
      - h2zizzle 2y ago
        And THAT narrative was created by Gamergater grifters. IT was even less true than whatever you might find flawed in GP.
      - thunderfork 2y ago
        [dead]
  - dboreham 2y ago
    That's mostly because what "comes in" has been deliberately reduced. US, apart from the ludicrous health system, doesn't seem to spend much more than other western countries.
  - rtkwe 2y ago
    And it died the moment there was a Republican in the White House because the GoP doesn't actually care about budget balance, outside of a few individual members, it's just an electoral strategy against Democrats. They have no problem pushing through massive tax cuts with "budget neutral" tricks to get it through with the assumption that they'll simply be extended any ways (and those are just your tax cuts the business tax cuts are, of course, permanent).
cmeacham98 2y ago
Speed traps catch people actually committing crimes. While you as a driver may be disappointed you can't speed (read: break the law) with impunity, I as a pedestrian and public transit user would prefer more speed traps and harsher enforcement. On the other hand, what happened in the linked article appears to be the FBI seizing the women's assets with approximately zero evidence she committed a crime.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Speed traps are frequently paired with abrupt and arbitrary changes to the speed limit which exist for the purpose of the speed trap. People who go fast through those are technically breaking the law, but morally they're doing nothing wrong (unless you're the kind of servile worm who derives morality from the law.)
  - cmeacham98 2y ago
    I've never seen any strong evidence for this (only a handful of anecdotes), and my personal experience driving doesn't match. I saw speed traps all the time and don't remember a single one that was associated with a speed limit change. Additionally, even if the speed limit is changed, assuming there is appropriate signage it is your responsibility to follow the speed limit.
    - guappa 2y ago
      I've also never personally been to NYC or Antartica, thus neither of these places really exists.
      - exe34 2y ago
        when you assert that something exists, it is generally expected that you would point at documented examples. for example, consumer protection organisations, or petrol lobbies, etc might have an interest in documenting those things. do those documents exist?
ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
Why not have the revenue go to victims of crime? Setup a general fund so that judges can allocate recovered funds to help the worst affected.
- spwa4 2y ago
  Because then some people make a career out of causing crimes.
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    > Because then some people make a career out of causing crimes. I don't really follow you. Are you suggesting that the victims fund would over-compensate victims so that they make a profit from being robbed etc? Currently, lots of people do make a career out of causing crimes - we call them criminals.
teeray 2y ago
Perhaps distributing among a large list of charities would be better. “A large list” would help prevent gaming the system with police / fire charities or something.
ajb 2y ago
With incentives, actual numbers matter. So yes, speed trap towns have bad incentives, but for national governments fines going to general revenue does not cause a problem even if in principle it is a bad incentive. In my country, local authorities are often accused of using parking fines as revenue, but the police are rarely accused of seizing for gain. As an unofficial punishment yes, but not for gain.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hw-guy 2y ago
Seized property should be held in a neutral escrow account until the case is adjudicated, and then automatically returned to the victim if they are not convicted of a crime within a reasonable time.

f_devd 2y ago

If the last few years should have showed anything it's how little the elected officials typically care about balancing, let alone create excess, budget.

spwa4 2y ago
Exactly. Even Trump, whose main policy promise was reducing spending, is currently 12% over budget (4% budget increase requested from congress + 8% that he's actually overspent so far)
Yeul 2y ago
Well there was that Tea Party movement. But the reality is that America is addicted to spending more money than comes in.
- h2zizzle 2y ago
  The Tea Party was like Gamergate in that it was ostensibly about [overtaxation|ethics in gaming journalism], but was actually driven by [sexism against female games journalists|racism against President Obama], and swiftly co-opted by [the conservative establishment|the conservative establishment] as the right face of the post-OWS idpol wedge. (It would be foolish to think that the divided state of this country was a unilateral push.)
  - Izkata 2y ago
    That narrative was created by the journalists Gamergate was against, to deflect against their criticisms. It was never actually true.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      And the real Grade A irony is that the same is true for the tea party and he took the post-hoc media spin hook line and sinker. If you take a step back you'll see that while tea-party, occupy wall street, Maga 1, mostly peaceful 2020/BLM and Maga 2 all take aim at different points in the establishment they're all firmly rooted in the discontent that every day people have with the amount the powers that be are lightening their pockets for causes they don't agree with. The grassroots movements will keep coming (and they will probably become more extreme too, and the powers that be will keep trying to co-opt and redirect them) until something changes.
      - h2zizzle 2y ago
        My initial description was correct. Unfortunately, people like yourself subscribe to the outcome of years of commiseration that commenced with the aim of rationalizing what was clearly bigotry to even contemporary observers (I was one of those). It is correct that the grassroots movement that you mentioned had a core of righteous discontent. As mentioned, the right portions were co-opted quickly and refashioned into an arm of neoconservatism. The left was popularly (though not ideologically) discredited or otherwise neutered by reliance on reluctant liberal "allies". The proof is in the rightward march of American policy in the interim.
    - h2zizzle 2y ago
      And THAT narrative was created by Gamergater grifters. IT was even less true than whatever you might find flawed in GP.
    - thunderfork 2y ago
      [dead]
- dboreham 2y ago
  That's mostly because what "comes in" has been deliberately reduced. US, apart from the ludicrous health system, doesn't seem to spend much more than other western countries.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  And it died the moment there was a Republican in the White House because the GoP doesn't actually care about budget balance, outside of a few individual members, it's just an electoral strategy against Democrats. They have no problem pushing through massive tax cuts with "budget neutral" tricks to get it through with the assumption that they'll simply be extended any ways (and those are just your tax cuts the business tax cuts are, of course, permanent).

cmeacham98 2y ago

Speed traps catch people actually committing crimes. While you as a driver may be disappointed you can't speed (read: break the law) with impunity, I as a pedestrian and public transit user would prefer more speed traps and harsher enforcement. On the other hand, what happened in the linked article appears to be the FBI seizing the women's assets with approximately zero evidence she committed a crime.

lupusreal 2y ago
Speed traps are frequently paired with abrupt and arbitrary changes to the speed limit which exist for the purpose of the speed trap. People who go fast through those are technically breaking the law, but morally they're doing nothing wrong (unless you're the kind of servile worm who derives morality from the law.)
- cmeacham98 2y ago
  I've never seen any strong evidence for this (only a handful of anecdotes), and my personal experience driving doesn't match. I saw speed traps all the time and don't remember a single one that was associated with a speed limit change. Additionally, even if the speed limit is changed, assuming there is appropriate signage it is your responsibility to follow the speed limit.
  - guappa 2y ago
    I've also never personally been to NYC or Antartica, thus neither of these places really exists.
    - exe34 2y ago
      when you assert that something exists, it is generally expected that you would point at documented examples. for example, consumer protection organisations, or petrol lobbies, etc might have an interest in documenting those things. do those documents exist?

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago

Why not have the revenue go to victims of crime? Setup a general fund so that judges can allocate recovered funds to help the worst affected.

spwa4 2y ago
Because then some people make a career out of causing crimes.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  > Because then some people make a career out of causing crimes. I don't really follow you. Are you suggesting that the victims fund would over-compensate victims so that they make a profit from being robbed etc? Currently, lots of people do make a career out of causing crimes - we call them criminals.

teeray 2y ago

Perhaps distributing among a large list of charities would be better. “A large list” would help prevent gaming the system with police / fire charities or something.

ajb 2y ago

With incentives, actual numbers matter. So yes, speed trap towns have bad incentives, but for national governments fines going to general revenue does not cause a problem even if in principle it is a bad incentive. In my country, local authorities are often accused of using parking fines as revenue, but the police are rarely accused of seizing for gain. As an unofficial punishment yes, but not for gain.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hw-guy 2y ago

Seized property should be held in a neutral escrow account until the case is adjudicated, and then automatically returned to the victim if they are not convicted of a crime within a reasonable time.