3 ms·

The order being reasonable or not is not germane to the topic at hand. It isn't relevant what sex a transgender person is defined to be. What matters to the boy

The order being reasonable or not is not germane to the topic at hand. It isn't relevant what sex a transgender person is defined to be. What matters to the boycott is that transgender people in tech are facing difficulty entering the U.S. to attend the conference. Wouldn't you agree that's a problem?

koakuma-chan 2y ago
[flagged]
- throwawayk7h 2y ago
  Right. I think I was unclear -- my point is that whether or not you agree with the E.O., you must surely agree it makes travel to the U.S. difficult for transgender travellers, right? And that's a problem for the conference.
  - koakuma-chan 2y ago
    Source?
    - mrtesthah 2y ago
      https://www.cntraveler.com/story/what-to-know-if-you-are-a-trans-traveler-applying-for-a-visa-to-the-us https://www.cntraveler.com/story/what-to-know-if-you-are-a-t... https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/marco-rubio-may-have-just-banned https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/marco-rubio-may-have-just...
    - throwawayk7h 2y ago
      I'm not sure for which aspect you are looking for a source. Erin Reed raised the alarm about the potential visa interruptions, as reported here: [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/marco-rubio-state-transgender-visa-b2704734.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/marco-rubi... If you're wondering why transgender travellers don't have documentation that matches their birth sex, it's because (gender identity aside) it's usually more important for documentation to match one's appearance. Documentation that doesn't match one's appearance can lead to questions, delays, and confusions. I have no source for this. If you're wondering why it's a problem for the conference, I don't have a source for that either. But from the tech conferences I've been to, I generally have observed a higher proportion of apparently transgender people than baseline. So by hosting in the U.S., the conference could potentially miss out on many transgender foreigners participating.
      - jl6 2y ago
        It’s usually more important for official documentation to be accurate, not for it to match appearance. Many people appear younger or older than they are, but it would be bizarre to put apparent age on a passport. The document is supposed to act as the ground truth. Passports don’t currently contain a gender marker, so maybe that could be campaigned for.
        throwawayk7h 2y ago
        Apparent age vs actual age follows a very different probability distribution than apparent sex vs actual sex (whatever that is). We don't have 10-year-olds looking like 90-year-olds, and if one existed, they would encounter a lot of problems at the border. This is analogous to someone who appears male, even on close inspection, but has an F on their passport (or birth certificate, or driver's license). Plus, these are the sorts of things you use to get a drink at a bar, not just borders. Other countries allow one's sex to be changed legally to solve this problem. It's not "inaccurate" -- it's semantics. According to a different definition of sex (for instance, hormonal sex, which can be changed medically; or apparent sex), one's sex on passport might correctly differ from one's birth sex. You might object that that's a worse definition, and those countries should change to the U.S.'s definition. But due to intersex people, there is no universally consistent binary definition of sex. For instance, no country which does not permit sex to be changed legally allows for options outside of "F" and "M". So if you believe sex cannot be changed, then you must also admit that there are people who can never have accurate passports.
        jl6 2y ago
        Those different “definitions” of sex are not the plain and common meaning of sex as reproductive role. “Hormonal sex” is a characteristic, not an alternative conceptual framework of what sex is. Yes, passports should acknowledge intersex conditions and this would be far easier if there weren’t people with unambiguous sex trying to use that mechanism too.
        throwawayk7h 2y ago

koakuma-chan 2y ago

[flagged]

throwawayk7h 2y ago
Right. I think I was unclear -- my point is that whether or not you agree with the E.O., you must surely agree it makes travel to the U.S. difficult for transgender travellers, right? And that's a problem for the conference.
- koakuma-chan 2y ago
  Source?
  - mrtesthah 2y ago
    https://www.cntraveler.com/story/what-to-know-if-you-are-a-trans-traveler-applying-for-a-visa-to-the-us https://www.cntraveler.com/story/what-to-know-if-you-are-a-t... https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/marco-rubio-may-have-just-banned https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/marco-rubio-may-have-just...
  - throwawayk7h 2y ago
    I'm not sure for which aspect you are looking for a source. Erin Reed raised the alarm about the potential visa interruptions, as reported here: [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/marco-rubio-state-transgender-visa-b2704734.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/marco-rubi... If you're wondering why transgender travellers don't have documentation that matches their birth sex, it's because (gender identity aside) it's usually more important for documentation to match one's appearance. Documentation that doesn't match one's appearance can lead to questions, delays, and confusions. I have no source for this. If you're wondering why it's a problem for the conference, I don't have a source for that either. But from the tech conferences I've been to, I generally have observed a higher proportion of apparently transgender people than baseline. So by hosting in the U.S., the conference could potentially miss out on many transgender foreigners participating.
    - jl6 2y ago
      It’s usually more important for official documentation to be accurate, not for it to match appearance. Many people appear younger or older than they are, but it would be bizarre to put apparent age on a passport. The document is supposed to act as the ground truth. Passports don’t currently contain a gender marker, so maybe that could be campaigned for.
      - throwawayk7h 2y ago
        Apparent age vs actual age follows a very different probability distribution than apparent sex vs actual sex (whatever that is). We don't have 10-year-olds looking like 90-year-olds, and if one existed, they would encounter a lot of problems at the border. This is analogous to someone who appears male, even on close inspection, but has an F on their passport (or birth certificate, or driver's license). Plus, these are the sorts of things you use to get a drink at a bar, not just borders. Other countries allow one's sex to be changed legally to solve this problem. It's not "inaccurate" -- it's semantics. According to a different definition of sex (for instance, hormonal sex, which can be changed medically; or apparent sex), one's sex on passport might correctly differ from one's birth sex. You might object that that's a worse definition, and those countries should change to the U.S.'s definition. But due to intersex people, there is no universally consistent binary definition of sex. For instance, no country which does not permit sex to be changed legally allows for options outside of "F" and "M". So if you believe sex cannot be changed, then you must also admit that there are people who can never have accurate passports.
        jl6 2y ago
        Those different “definitions” of sex are not the plain and common meaning of sex as reproductive role. “Hormonal sex” is a characteristic, not an alternative conceptual framework of what sex is. Yes, passports should acknowledge intersex conditions and this would be far easier if there weren’t people with unambiguous sex trying to use that mechanism too.
        throwawayk7h 2y ago