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> They want to get as much productivity out of you for as little pay as possible It’s only adversarial because you want to get as much pay as possible out of t

> They want to get as much productivity out of you for as little pay as possible It’s only adversarial because you want to get as much pay as possible out of them for as little productivity as possible. > I somewhat agreed and got caught up in that culture until I got picked up in the fourth round of layoffs at a time when I felt I was doing my best work. Did everyone feel that way?

itsgrimetime 2y ago
> It’s only adversarial because you want to get as much pay as possible out of them for as little productivity as possible. Or maybe pay that’s proportional to the value we provide
- paulcole 2y ago
  It’s always proportional to the value you provide. You just don’t like the proportion lol. What specific proportion do you think is fair? And how do you calculate the value you provide?
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    I mean, the same question can be asked of my employer.
    - paulcole 2y ago
      Yes, but right now I’m asking the person who said they wanted a proportional amount of value. Either they can/will answer the question or they can’t/won’t.
      - saagarjha 2y ago
        Maybe they didn’t feel answering your question would give them a proportional amount of value.
  - bradlys 2y ago
    In a capitalist market, it is explicitly not proportional to the amount of value you provide. That is the underlaying principle of capitalism… Read up a bit, man. Even a capitalist would agree with this.
    - paulcole 2y ago
      I can assure you it is. You get paid X. You deliver Y value. The proportion is X / Y. Sometimes that proportion is very high, sometimes it is very low. Sometimes it is negative. Sometimes you get a divide by zero error. And again, the questions. What specific proportion do you think is fair? And how do you calculate the value you provide?
      - bradlys 2y ago
        Jesus Christ. That’s not how it works! Capitalism is explicitly not about that. Holy shit this is insane that you think that’s how capitalism works on a website that’s literally about venture capital. What the fuck.
        paulcole 2y ago
        X and Y exist right? Why can’t you divide them to make a proportion?
        banannaise 2y ago
        Among other reasons, because the employer holds all of that information and I'm not given access to it. It's an asymmetric information problem.
        paulcole 2y ago
        But you can for sure tell me the proportion that you think is fair right? Should it be 25%, 50%, 99%?
        2y ago
  - ever1337 2y ago
    The workers will decide and they will dictate it to you as you have done unto them.
    - paulcole 2y ago
      So as a worker, what specific proportion do you believe is fair to dictate?
      - ever1337 2y ago
        It's not at all a matter of fairness. It is a matter of might.
krainboltgreene 2y ago
Yes but they do that without doing any of the labour.
kortex 2y ago
> It’s only adversarial because you want to get as much pay as possible out of them for as little productivity as possible. And the employer wants to pay the employee as little as possible for as much productivity as possible. In a perfect world with perfect information and rational actors on a level playing field, this is great: we expect supply and demand to converge, this is econ 101. But it's not a perfect playing field, one side is coercive, holds most/all the cards, calls all the shots, treats people with lives and experiences as "resources", and seeks profit over all other objective functions. This is class dynamics 101.
- paulcole 2y ago
  > And the employer wants to pay the employee as little as possible for as much productivity as possible. Yes, this is literally what I replied to in the first place. Both sides want to get the most for the least. It doesn’t matter how tilted the playing field is or is not, both sides have the same goal. I never said that both sides have equal chances to get their goal.

itsgrimetime 2y ago

> It’s only adversarial because you want to get as much pay as possible out of them for as little productivity as possible. Or maybe pay that’s proportional to the value we provide

paulcole 2y ago
It’s always proportional to the value you provide. You just don’t like the proportion lol. What specific proportion do you think is fair? And how do you calculate the value you provide?
- saagarjha 2y ago
  I mean, the same question can be asked of my employer.
  - paulcole 2y ago
    Yes, but right now I’m asking the person who said they wanted a proportional amount of value. Either they can/will answer the question or they can’t/won’t.
    - saagarjha 2y ago
      Maybe they didn’t feel answering your question would give them a proportional amount of value.
- bradlys 2y ago
  In a capitalist market, it is explicitly not proportional to the amount of value you provide. That is the underlaying principle of capitalism… Read up a bit, man. Even a capitalist would agree with this.
  - paulcole 2y ago
    I can assure you it is. You get paid X. You deliver Y value. The proportion is X / Y. Sometimes that proportion is very high, sometimes it is very low. Sometimes it is negative. Sometimes you get a divide by zero error. And again, the questions. What specific proportion do you think is fair? And how do you calculate the value you provide?
    - bradlys 2y ago
      Jesus Christ. That’s not how it works! Capitalism is explicitly not about that. Holy shit this is insane that you think that’s how capitalism works on a website that’s literally about venture capital. What the fuck.
      - paulcole 2y ago
        X and Y exist right? Why can’t you divide them to make a proportion?
        banannaise 2y ago
        Among other reasons, because the employer holds all of that information and I'm not given access to it. It's an asymmetric information problem.
        paulcole 2y ago
        But you can for sure tell me the proportion that you think is fair right? Should it be 25%, 50%, 99%?
        2y ago
- ever1337 2y ago
  The workers will decide and they will dictate it to you as you have done unto them.
  - paulcole 2y ago
    So as a worker, what specific proportion do you believe is fair to dictate?
    - ever1337 2y ago
      It's not at all a matter of fairness. It is a matter of might.

krainboltgreene 2y ago

Yes but they do that without doing any of the labour.

kortex 2y ago

> It’s only adversarial because you want to get as much pay as possible out of them for as little productivity as possible. And the employer wants to pay the employee as little as possible for as much productivity as possible. In a perfect world with perfect information and rational actors on a level playing field, this is great: we expect supply and demand to converge, this is econ 101. But it's not a perfect playing field, one side is coercive, holds most/all the cards, calls all the shots, treats people with lives and experiences as "resources", and seeks profit over all other objective functions. This is class dynamics 101.

paulcole 2y ago
> And the employer wants to pay the employee as little as possible for as much productivity as possible. Yes, this is literally what I replied to in the first place. Both sides want to get the most for the least. It doesn’t matter how tilted the playing field is or is not, both sides have the same goal. I never said that both sides have equal chances to get their goal.