3 ms·

I quite like the idea of a trade union or accreditation board for SWE. The idea that we all work by a shared set of standards and terminology is appealing.

rockemsockem 2y ago
Sounds like a group that captures credentialing in the industry and then winds up using it to push their own flawed ideology on the entire industry. Because who else would actually be interested in being part of such a board. No thank you.
- whoisthemachine 2y ago
  Civil, mechanical, electrical, and most other engineering disciplines have an accreditation board. I don't think they are pushing a "flawed" ideology in those disciplines. At least I don't see civil engineers constantly questioning why they would do load modeling for a bridge, like SWE's constantly question the value of unit testing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABET
  - rockemsockem 2y ago
    Yeah and what are the numbers on how many employed engineers hold that accreditation? Just because it exists doesn't mean it's used. I know for a fact that aerospace, electrical, and mechanical engineers working on designing rockets, nuclear reactors, space capsules, and electric charging infrastructure do not need this credential. And so most of them do not have it.
    - whoisthemachine 2y ago
      If they have an undergrad degree in any of those disciplines then their college has ABET accreditation.
      - rockemsockem 2y ago
        IDK why, but I totally mixed up ABET with the professional engineering credentials where individuals get accredited as opposed to curriculums. I'm not sure ABET is the most relevant here? What would making CS programs accredited change?
        whoisthemachine 2y ago
        Consistent educational standards leads to a common shared understanding of what knowledge and training your engineering colleagues have. This also makes it easier right off the bat for an employer to know what a "junior" engineer is - and leads to more consistent experience levels afterwards. And you didn't quite mix it up, a degree from an ABET accredited school is required to get your professional engineering certification, which is often required in cases where engineering designs carry legal liability.
        rockemsockem 2y ago
        I think there's still a lot of inconsistency and judgement that happens for gauging whether someone is junior and for what skills they might have. Many software engineers don't have CS degrees at all and even more have ones from different countries. I am unable to find concrete numbers on this, but I would bet that the majority of employed engineers in the US do not carry a professional engineering certification.
        whoisthemachine 2y ago
        I don't argue with your point regarding how many engineers have their PE. I don't have mine. My point is that accreditation boards and trade unions can help set standard minimums of what an engineer (or trades person) will know going into a job. Of course employers can ignore them, but in general those standards help bring consistent expectations to a given trade.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  It could be as simple as you only need to take the Leetcode exam once every ten years instead of every time you switch jobs.
  - rockemsockem 2y ago
    I don't trust a credentialing board to vet my coworkers for me. EDIT: i.e. I'm still going to want to interview them and have them prove to me that they can write code.
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      And yet, that's what we do with CoderPad, Leetcode, Karat, etc. Yes, of course you should still interview them afterwards, I'm sure that's what credentialed professions do as well. My point is just to have the Leetcode portion be done once rather than for every company's interview.
      - rockemsockem 2y ago
        No, but that's what I'm saying though. I don't trust someone else, especially some credentialing body to administer leetcode style questions. I'm still going to want to have a candidate prove they can actually write code.
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        Maybe you can ask them domain-specific questions more relevant to the actual position you’re hiring them for? System design? Pair programming session? Debug a code sample? Present a solution for a home coding assignment? Anyway, many companies are outsourcing phone screens now to services such as Karat, where Kiwi contractor engineers provide 24/7 interview availability. Yet those interviews cannot be transferred from company to prospective Karat-using company. So you get the worst of all worlds.
        rockemsockem 2y ago
logicchains 2y ago
If it existed then we'd legally be forced to write awful enterprise-style OO-heavy Java, because that's what all the "software engineering" courses at university taught as best practice.

rockemsockem 2y ago

Sounds like a group that captures credentialing in the industry and then winds up using it to push their own flawed ideology on the entire industry. Because who else would actually be interested in being part of such a board. No thank you.

whoisthemachine 2y ago
Civil, mechanical, electrical, and most other engineering disciplines have an accreditation board. I don't think they are pushing a "flawed" ideology in those disciplines. At least I don't see civil engineers constantly questioning why they would do load modeling for a bridge, like SWE's constantly question the value of unit testing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABET
- rockemsockem 2y ago
  Yeah and what are the numbers on how many employed engineers hold that accreditation? Just because it exists doesn't mean it's used. I know for a fact that aerospace, electrical, and mechanical engineers working on designing rockets, nuclear reactors, space capsules, and electric charging infrastructure do not need this credential. And so most of them do not have it.
  - whoisthemachine 2y ago
    If they have an undergrad degree in any of those disciplines then their college has ABET accreditation.
    - rockemsockem 2y ago
      IDK why, but I totally mixed up ABET with the professional engineering credentials where individuals get accredited as opposed to curriculums. I'm not sure ABET is the most relevant here? What would making CS programs accredited change?
      - whoisthemachine 2y ago
        Consistent educational standards leads to a common shared understanding of what knowledge and training your engineering colleagues have. This also makes it easier right off the bat for an employer to know what a "junior" engineer is - and leads to more consistent experience levels afterwards. And you didn't quite mix it up, a degree from an ABET accredited school is required to get your professional engineering certification, which is often required in cases where engineering designs carry legal liability.
        rockemsockem 2y ago
        I think there's still a lot of inconsistency and judgement that happens for gauging whether someone is junior and for what skills they might have. Many software engineers don't have CS degrees at all and even more have ones from different countries. I am unable to find concrete numbers on this, but I would bet that the majority of employed engineers in the US do not carry a professional engineering certification.
        whoisthemachine 2y ago
        I don't argue with your point regarding how many engineers have their PE. I don't have mine. My point is that accreditation boards and trade unions can help set standard minimums of what an engineer (or trades person) will know going into a job. Of course employers can ignore them, but in general those standards help bring consistent expectations to a given trade.
Apocryphon 2y ago
It could be as simple as you only need to take the Leetcode exam once every ten years instead of every time you switch jobs.
- rockemsockem 2y ago
  I don't trust a credentialing board to vet my coworkers for me. EDIT: i.e. I'm still going to want to interview them and have them prove to me that they can write code.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    And yet, that's what we do with CoderPad, Leetcode, Karat, etc. Yes, of course you should still interview them afterwards, I'm sure that's what credentialed professions do as well. My point is just to have the Leetcode portion be done once rather than for every company's interview.
    - rockemsockem 2y ago
      No, but that's what I'm saying though. I don't trust someone else, especially some credentialing body to administer leetcode style questions. I'm still going to want to have a candidate prove they can actually write code.
      - Apocryphon 2y ago
        Maybe you can ask them domain-specific questions more relevant to the actual position you’re hiring them for? System design? Pair programming session? Debug a code sample? Present a solution for a home coding assignment? Anyway, many companies are outsourcing phone screens now to services such as Karat, where Kiwi contractor engineers provide 24/7 interview availability. Yet those interviews cannot be transferred from company to prospective Karat-using company. So you get the worst of all worlds.
        rockemsockem 2y ago

logicchains 2y ago

If it existed then we'd legally be forced to write awful enterprise-style OO-heavy Java, because that's what all the "software engineering" courses at university taught as best practice.