5 ms·

But it _doesn't_ use web standards. It has it's own mental model and gotchas just like any other framework.

uhoh-itsmaciek 2y ago
It does. It bridges a purely server-rendered architecture with a SPA really nicely, and does it mostly with web standards. You don't need to run any client-side JS with a Remix app. It's not perfect, but there are a lot of benefits to its approach. I won't try to argue there's no front-end treadmill: there absolutely is, and I had to laugh reading the current top comment because I just had to migrate off Apollo CLI at work. But this "The web was perfect in 1999--stop changing things!" take is tedious and intellectually lazy. (I'm not accusing you of it, but it's certainly a common sentiment.) We should be working together to solve concrete problems, and avoid both chasing the latest fads and pretending there's no room for improvement.
- bloomingkales 2y ago
  It’s a nuanced topic. If we want to dive in, I can provide a glimpse into the first layer of the anus as we stick our head into it. When we shepherded a lot of sheep into frontend via these courses and boot camps and quasi courses/bootcamps in the form of certain frameworks (hey, you only know this one framework?), we created a cohort of something. Now what is that something? It’s not really the tinkerer that loves doing this stuff and would have found a way to express themselves (please pay attention to the word “express”, as in, can’t help it). That something was … a pragmatic identity. A pragmatic identity was formed where “I am now a software engineer because I and my cohort agree, we really know how to do our stuff”. Such a cohort can only be fueled by identity, not passion. This cohort can’t innovate and must cling to the identity of their original accreditation, so they will always be defensive. That’s the first layer of the asshole as we enter it, it goes deeper. The second layer involves large amounts of money and people’s livelihoods, to which they’d defend unto death.
  - uhoh-itsmaciek 2y ago
    I don't believe you want to have a productive conversation about this. It sounds like you just want to be angry.
    - bloomingkales 2y ago
      Okay? I'm having a lot of fun talking about some of the parts of our circus. I can't change anything. There will be new cult leaders (evangelists) for frameworks, and new cohorts, we can't change the past. Just pay attention to the rough framework (no pun intended, swear) as it happens again, and try our best to call it out, because it didn't always lead to great outcomes. Money will be made on all sides regardless and we will all be fine financially. I'm talking about something else, inner. The infinite anus, asshole, is real - but now I'm just projecting.
- nullpoint420 2y ago
  > mostly with web standards IMO, the pain from "mostly" starts to show when integrating React Router v6 with legacy frameworks and applications. I'm sure if you go all in on React Router v6 it's great. At my $DAYJOB we are migrating to Remix w/ GraphQL Federation. It's been a pain. Especially because we haven't finished any of these migrations: * ExtJS -> JQuery * JQuery -> React class components * React class components -> MobX-observed components * Observable MobX components -> functional React components with context * Functional React Components with context -> React Router v6 * React Router v6 -> Remix w/ GraphQL federation I understand my situation is unique - I'm just bitter from needing to know ~6 different frontend technologies at once. Let alone all the Not-Invented-Here-Syndrome abominations in our codebase.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - koakuma-chan 2y ago
    Remix already has data loading, why add GraphQL? It's a pain in the ass to work with from my brief experience.
    - nullpoint420 2y ago
      That's my point exactly. I have the same questions from leadership.
  - apsurd 2y ago
    your last note that adds not-invented-here abominations… if chasing endless frameworks of the month is bad, and building stuff in house is bad, then what do you propose to avoid making this mess?
    - zaphar 2y ago
      Skip a couple framework versions and indeed entire frameworks. Maybe go a couple years before you "upgrade" to something else. It is entirely possible you could go as much as 5 or 10 years on something. You'll still have to evaluate and potentially mitigate some CVE's. But that could actually be less work and less aggravating.
nobleach 2y ago
But it's based on the fetch standard and formData submission. You're literally running a server that handles those two things.
- nullpoint420 2y ago
  My point being, it's "based on" Web Standards, it is _not_ Web Standards. What if I use `fetcher.submit(data, { encType: "application/json" })`? Why not just use fetch directly at that point? I believe it adds a layer of indirectness that just wasn't there before. If web standards are so important, why don't we use `window.fetch` and `new FormData()` directly instead of wrapping it?
  - nullpoint420 2y ago
    My favorite example of this being JSON gets converted to FormData on the frontend, which then gets POST-ed to the server, which then converts it to JSON on the backend.

It does. It bridges a purely server-rendered architecture with a SPA really nicely, and does it mostly with web standards. You don't need to run any client-side JS with a Remix app. It's not perfect, but there are a lot of benefits to its approach. I won't try to argue there's no front-end treadmill: there absolutely is, and I had to laugh reading the current top comment because I just had to migrate off Apollo CLI at work. But this "The web was perfect in 1999--stop changing things!" take is tedious and intellectually lazy. (I'm not accusing you of it, but it's certainly a common sentiment.) We should be working together to solve concrete problems, and avoid both chasing the latest fads and pretending there's no room for improvement.

bloomingkales 2y ago
It’s a nuanced topic. If we want to dive in, I can provide a glimpse into the first layer of the anus as we stick our head into it. When we shepherded a lot of sheep into frontend via these courses and boot camps and quasi courses/bootcamps in the form of certain frameworks (hey, you only know this one framework?), we created a cohort of something. Now what is that something? It’s not really the tinkerer that loves doing this stuff and would have found a way to express themselves (please pay attention to the word “express”, as in, can’t help it). That something was … a pragmatic identity. A pragmatic identity was formed where “I am now a software engineer because I and my cohort agree, we really know how to do our stuff”. Such a cohort can only be fueled by identity, not passion. This cohort can’t innovate and must cling to the identity of their original accreditation, so they will always be defensive. That’s the first layer of the asshole as we enter it, it goes deeper. The second layer involves large amounts of money and people’s livelihoods, to which they’d defend unto death.
- uhoh-itsmaciek 2y ago
  I don't believe you want to have a productive conversation about this. It sounds like you just want to be angry.
  - bloomingkales 2y ago
    Okay? I'm having a lot of fun talking about some of the parts of our circus. I can't change anything. There will be new cult leaders (evangelists) for frameworks, and new cohorts, we can't change the past. Just pay attention to the rough framework (no pun intended, swear) as it happens again, and try our best to call it out, because it didn't always lead to great outcomes. Money will be made on all sides regardless and we will all be fine financially. I'm talking about something else, inner. The infinite anus, asshole, is real - but now I'm just projecting.
nullpoint420 2y ago
> mostly with web standards IMO, the pain from "mostly" starts to show when integrating React Router v6 with legacy frameworks and applications. I'm sure if you go all in on React Router v6 it's great. At my $DAYJOB we are migrating to Remix w/ GraphQL Federation. It's been a pain. Especially because we haven't finished any of these migrations: * ExtJS -> JQuery * JQuery -> React class components * React class components -> MobX-observed components * Observable MobX components -> functional React components with context * Functional React Components with context -> React Router v6 * React Router v6 -> Remix w/ GraphQL federation I understand my situation is unique - I'm just bitter from needing to know ~6 different frontend technologies at once. Let alone all the Not-Invented-Here-Syndrome abominations in our codebase.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- koakuma-chan 2y ago
  Remix already has data loading, why add GraphQL? It's a pain in the ass to work with from my brief experience.
  - nullpoint420 2y ago
    That's my point exactly. I have the same questions from leadership.
- apsurd 2y ago
  your last note that adds not-invented-here abominations… if chasing endless frameworks of the month is bad, and building stuff in house is bad, then what do you propose to avoid making this mess?
  - zaphar 2y ago
    Skip a couple framework versions and indeed entire frameworks. Maybe go a couple years before you "upgrade" to something else. It is entirely possible you could go as much as 5 or 10 years on something. You'll still have to evaluate and potentially mitigate some CVE's. But that could actually be less work and less aggravating.

nobleach 2y ago

But it's based on the fetch standard and formData submission. You're literally running a server that handles those two things.

nullpoint420 2y ago
My point being, it's "based on" Web Standards, it is _not_ Web Standards. What if I use `fetcher.submit(data, { encType: "application/json" })`? Why not just use fetch directly at that point? I believe it adds a layer of indirectness that just wasn't there before. If web standards are so important, why don't we use `window.fetch` and `new FormData()` directly instead of wrapping it?
- nullpoint420 2y ago
  My favorite example of this being JSON gets converted to FormData on the frontend, which then gets POST-ed to the server, which then converts it to JSON on the backend.