4 ms·

I'm curious what the line is. If someone says "Trump is violating the constitution and should be impeached", is that advocating overthrow? Or just suggesting a

by klipt 2y ago

I'm curious what the line is. If someone says "Trump is violating the constitution and should be impeached", is that advocating overthrow? Or just suggesting a way to work within the system? If someone says "presidential democracies are historically unstable, the US would do better under a parliamentary system" is that advocating overthrow? When Trump said "Proud Boys stand back and stand by" was he advocating overthrow?

goatlover 2y ago
I would say Trump should be removed from office before he does too much damage to US democracy, peacefully if possible. I'm not advocating anything other than protecting the Constitution, and there are two other branches of government that can act to protect it.
- chrisco255 2y ago
  It was Biden that damaged the democracy by allowing unchecked, unlimited immigration into the country, even going as far as to subsidize and pay for accommodations in luxury hotels in NYC. No country can stand on that kind of policy for long. No country in history ever has.
  - goatlover 2y ago
    Immigrants are a boogeyman. The US is a massive country with a huge economy. Most of them are seeking better opportunities by doing jobs Americans don't want to do. There have always been waves of immigrants since the US was founded. And it's not true that Biden allowed unlimited immigration. At any rate, this is just a distraction from how the Trump administration has been seeking to consolidate executive power unconstitutionally since taking office a 2nd time.
    - chrisco255 2y ago
      > Most of them are seeking better opportunities by doing jobs Americans don't want to do No, there are no jobs Americans don't want to do. As you say, its a massive country with 300 million people, there's a diverse set of skills and labor pool here. They just want market-level wages to do them. There's been migration, it's been largely controlled migration for the past 120 years, with no expectation that migrants would be subsidized and provided with shelter, cell phones, etc. or that we'd allow gangs from Venezuela to establish footholds and allow human and drug trafficking to pass through completely unchecked. There is nothing Trump has done that any previous president hasn't already done. Presidents have a lot of power under the Constitution and even more that Congress has delegated to them over the years.
      - klipt 2y ago
        Didn't the democrat legislators write a border security bill, but republican legislators shut it down because they wanted to campaign on lack of border security, which they couldn't do if they actually did their job and passed a bill to fix it? > There is nothing Trump has done that any previous president hasn't already done. How many presidents managed to crash a booming economy in just a few months?
  - dc396 2y ago
    Biden, of course, didn't allow "unchecked, unlimited immigration into the country" and the accommodations used were not "luxury hotels". These anti-immigration talking points have been repeatedly shown to simply be lies. If you want actual data to attribute blame, see https://www.cato.org/commentary/trumps-immigration-policies-made-america-less-safe-heres-data https://www.cato.org/commentary/trumps-immigration-policies-... and recall how Trump caused a bipartisan effort to actually try to fix the immigration mess to collapse.
    - chrisco255 2y ago
      Cato is a libertarian-leaning org and that's just someone's thinkpiece on the matter. Illegal immigration hit record levels under Biden's administration: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-enc... and the Roosevelt hotel: https://www.foxnews.com/us/mayor-eric-adams-says-nycs-roosevelt-hotel-migrant-shelter-soon-close https://www.foxnews.com/us/mayor-eric-adams-says-nycs-roosev... Unsustainable and terrible waste of money. There are millions of people that would pay money out of their own pockets to come to the U.S., educated people who are self-sufficient and we wasted money on making a bad problem worse.
      - klipt 2y ago
        Didn't the democrat legislators write a border security bill, but republican legislators shut it down because they wanted to campaign on lack of border security, which they couldn't do if they actually did their job and passed a bill to fix it?
      - dc396 2y ago
        > Cato is a libertarian-leaning org and that's just someone's thinkpiece on the matter. So, the data that is presented and documented is irrelevant and dismissible? > Illegal immigration hit record levels under Biden's administration As did deportations (e.g., https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o) > https://www.foxnews.com/us/mayor-eric-adams-says-nycs-roosev https://www.foxnews.com/us/mayor-eric-adams-says-nycs-roosev... Yes, the Roosevelt Hotel was used for housing for asylum seekers. US immigration law allows for asylum seekers. Those asylum seekers must be housed somewhere. Certain states (e.g., Texas) transferred asylum seekers to New York City for a (arguably justified) political stunt. New York City used the Roosevelt Hotel. > Unsustainable and terrible waste of money. There are millions of people that would pay money out of their own pockets to come to the U.S., educated people who are self-sufficient and we wasted money on making a bad problem worse. That isn't how US immigration law works. Everyone agrees US Immigration law is a disaster. As I mentioned, there was a bipartisan agreement to help fix it. Trump derailed that effort.

by klipt 2y ago

goatlover 2y ago

I would say Trump should be removed from office before he does too much damage to US democracy, peacefully if possible. I'm not advocating anything other than protecting the Constitution, and there are two other branches of government that can act to protect it.

chrisco255 2y ago
It was Biden that damaged the democracy by allowing unchecked, unlimited immigration into the country, even going as far as to subsidize and pay for accommodations in luxury hotels in NYC. No country can stand on that kind of policy for long. No country in history ever has.
- goatlover 2y ago
  Immigrants are a boogeyman. The US is a massive country with a huge economy. Most of them are seeking better opportunities by doing jobs Americans don't want to do. There have always been waves of immigrants since the US was founded. And it's not true that Biden allowed unlimited immigration. At any rate, this is just a distraction from how the Trump administration has been seeking to consolidate executive power unconstitutionally since taking office a 2nd time.
  - chrisco255 2y ago
    > Most of them are seeking better opportunities by doing jobs Americans don't want to do No, there are no jobs Americans don't want to do. As you say, its a massive country with 300 million people, there's a diverse set of skills and labor pool here. They just want market-level wages to do them. There's been migration, it's been largely controlled migration for the past 120 years, with no expectation that migrants would be subsidized and provided with shelter, cell phones, etc. or that we'd allow gangs from Venezuela to establish footholds and allow human and drug trafficking to pass through completely unchecked. There is nothing Trump has done that any previous president hasn't already done. Presidents have a lot of power under the Constitution and even more that Congress has delegated to them over the years.
    - klipt 2y ago
      Didn't the democrat legislators write a border security bill, but republican legislators shut it down because they wanted to campaign on lack of border security, which they couldn't do if they actually did their job and passed a bill to fix it? > There is nothing Trump has done that any previous president hasn't already done. How many presidents managed to crash a booming economy in just a few months?
- dc396 2y ago
  Biden, of course, didn't allow "unchecked, unlimited immigration into the country" and the accommodations used were not "luxury hotels". These anti-immigration talking points have been repeatedly shown to simply be lies. If you want actual data to attribute blame, see https://www.cato.org/commentary/trumps-immigration-policies-made-america-less-safe-heres-data https://www.cato.org/commentary/trumps-immigration-policies-... and recall how Trump caused a bipartisan effort to actually try to fix the immigration mess to collapse.
  - chrisco255 2y ago
    Cato is a libertarian-leaning org and that's just someone's thinkpiece on the matter. Illegal immigration hit record levels under Biden's administration: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-enc... and the Roosevelt hotel: https://www.foxnews.com/us/mayor-eric-adams-says-nycs-roosevelt-hotel-migrant-shelter-soon-close https://www.foxnews.com/us/mayor-eric-adams-says-nycs-roosev... Unsustainable and terrible waste of money. There are millions of people that would pay money out of their own pockets to come to the U.S., educated people who are self-sufficient and we wasted money on making a bad problem worse.
    - klipt 2y ago
      Didn't the democrat legislators write a border security bill, but republican legislators shut it down because they wanted to campaign on lack of border security, which they couldn't do if they actually did their job and passed a bill to fix it?
    - dc396 2y ago
      > Cato is a libertarian-leaning org and that's just someone's thinkpiece on the matter. So, the data that is presented and documented is irrelevant and dismissible? > Illegal immigration hit record levels under Biden's administration As did deportations (e.g., https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o) > https://www.foxnews.com/us/mayor-eric-adams-says-nycs-roosev https://www.foxnews.com/us/mayor-eric-adams-says-nycs-roosev... Yes, the Roosevelt Hotel was used for housing for asylum seekers. US immigration law allows for asylum seekers. Those asylum seekers must be housed somewhere. Certain states (e.g., Texas) transferred asylum seekers to New York City for a (arguably justified) political stunt. New York City used the Roosevelt Hotel. > Unsustainable and terrible waste of money. There are millions of people that would pay money out of their own pockets to come to the U.S., educated people who are self-sufficient and we wasted money on making a bad problem worse. That isn't how US immigration law works. Everyone agrees US Immigration law is a disaster. As I mentioned, there was a bipartisan agreement to help fix it. Trump derailed that effort.