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Full franchise democracy in the US is arguably younger than living memory. So are a lot of things we take for granted as civil rights (and some of powers that b

Full franchise democracy in the US is arguably younger than living memory. So are a lot of things we take for granted as civil rights (and some of powers that be seem determined to roll those back). But even assuming the premise, it’s not hard to see how generations who’ve enjoyed a privilege might be more likely to take it for granted than societies that have more recently gained it, and are within living memory of fascism in power (or in neighboring states).

rayiner 2y ago
Civil rights is orthogonal to democracy. Creating a democratic country like the U.S. is the real achievement. Most countries never come close to accomplishing that.
- diggan 2y ago
  According to the Democracy Index (article about it here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/democracy-index-data-economist-governments-b2705687.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/democracy-index-dat...) there are about 25 "Full Democracies", 107 Non-authoritarian regimes, and 60 authoritarian regimes. Fun fact: The US isn't counted as a "Full Democracy" by that index, so seems it's not as a great of an achievement as you seem to think. I'm looking forward to see how the ranking of the US changes in 2025, seems to be slipping downwards rather than upwards sadly.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    What’s the basis of that index. Are they alleging US elections are rigged?
    - machomaster 2y ago
      Why are you asking questions instead of easily reading about the index criteria?
      - mindslight 2y ago
        Playing six degrees of buttery emails.
      - throw16180339 2y ago
        He's just sealioning again.
        blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
        Or maybe these democracy index things are entirely arbitrary
        AlexeyBelov 2y ago
        I used to like reading his comments years ago. Now it's like an enlightened reddit user, in the worst way.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        It’s just a way to say: why do you think this index is meaningful based on what it measures.
        machomaster 2y ago
        In that case you should have actually made your case, voice what in the index you disagree with and why.
      - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - diggan 2y ago
      There are a lot of indicators they look at, give it a read if you're curious: https://image.b.economist.com/lib/fe8d13727c61047f7c/m/1/609fbc8d-4724-440d-b827-2c7b7300353d.pdf https://image.b.economist.com/lib/fe8d13727c61047f7c/m/1/609... (North America starts at page 44). One snippet: > However, the political and structural problems that caused the US to be downgraded to a “flawed democracy” in 2016 (a downgrade that pre-dated the inauguration of Donald Trump as president in January 2017) persist. These include low levels of trust in political institutions and the media; institutional gridlock; excessive influence of lobbyists, interest groups and the mega-rich; sharp economic and social inequalities; and an absence of social consensus on core national values.
  - xyzzyz 2y ago
    Sorry, but why exactly should we care about what some random score that some people invented and named Democracy Index says? It’s not like there is some universal agreement that maximizing the score in these people’s quiz is good or proper.
    - diggan 2y ago
      At least they provide justification and reasoning behind the numbers they assign, they're not throwing darts to see what to score things. Read through the report yourself, then come back if there are specific things you disagree with. Or maybe even better, find some better research and link it here. Just saying "USA is the most democratic country in the world" feels like worse than at least trying to look at things objectively.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        I didn’t say the U.S. was the most democratic country in the world—I wasn’t comparing the U.S. to Norway or Denmark. But the U.S. achieved in the 18th century something that Germany, France, Spain, etc., didn’t achieve until the mid-20th century. That’s an achievement. And the lack of universal suffrage back in the day doesn’t diminish America’s achievement. India and Bangladesh and Iraq and many places have universal suffrage but they’re not as democratic as the U.S. was in 1789. Getting to that point is the 0 to 1 of democracy. Expanding the franchise from there is incremental development.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    This index unironically puts countries that practice government censorship in the category of full democracies. Sorry but this isn't a democracy index - it's just a progressive index.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      To lots of people, “liberal democracy” just means “liberal.”
      - boroboro4 2y ago
        Don’t worry, the US not gonna have either soon. And yes, some of the rights are essential for democracy. There is a reason bill of rights was approved at the sunrise of our democracy.
- wwweston 2y ago
  The founding of the US is absolutely a remarkable achievement. A group of colonies successfully broke from global imperial power to successfully establish a society heavily influenced by the best enlightenment thinking and classical civil philosophy. It's really something. Looking at some populist reactionary movements that happened in the early 19th century, one wonders if the outcome could have been as good as the US constitution even 30 years later. That said: * it existed in a historic and cultural context of states that had already made significant movements in that direction -- it was a big leap, but it wasn't simple 0-1. More like a 0.4 with a lot of the relevant ideals and institutions (elections, representation, courts, legislative bodies, executive authority, rule of law , etc) fairly well developed and demonstrated in various ways pulled together into a coherent 0.75 and woven in with enlightenment ideals as expressed in documents like the declaration of independence. * There is at least a partial linear dependence between civil rights and democracy. The franchise relationship is where it's strongest. Democracy is effective, principled, & honored ballot access. Without any effective franchise what you have instead is an opinion poll. And mere fractional access to the franchise walks elections & representation down from "1" -- it is literally the coefficient you have to multiple a "1" democracy by in order to arrive at its effective democratic nature. That's just the start, though. It's a bit like that old Churchill/Shaw/Twain/whoever story where Clever Guy™ is having a conversation with a woman: “Would you sleep with a stranger if he paid you £1,000,000?” “Yes.” “And if he paid you £5?” “£5? What do you think I am?” “We’ve already established that, now we're just haggling over the price.” Ha-ha! A country without a universal franchise has already established that some people don't get a democratic say, it's just haggling over who those people are. And that means it can haggle over whether you get to be one of those people. And even eventually over whether anyone gets to be one of those people, over whether it is democratic at all. This generalizes to other rights. In order to have them guaranteed to anyone, they must be guaranteed to everyone. It's why constitutional guarantees tend to be features of constitutional representative democracies since the enlightenment, imperfect leap though the US is. The big question is if the US (among others) can finish climbing the ladder when the political headwinds seem to be against "guaranteed to everyone."
  - rayiner 2y ago
    > A country without a universal franchise has already established that some people don't get a democratic say, it's just haggling over who those people are. And that means it can haggle over whether you get to be one of those people. And even eventually over whether anyone gets to be one of those people, over whether it is democratic at all. I don't think that inductive reasoning works. Every country excludes lots of people from the franchise. The U.S. has almost 100 million people who aren't eligible to vote, mostly young people and non-citizens. No country has a truly universal franchise. Under your reasoning, that's unstable--if we can take away the franchise from 17 year olds, we can take away the franchise from 18 year olds, etc. Historically, the big democratic jumps were probably extending the franchise to prominent family heads voting, followed by landowning males.

rayiner 2y ago

Civil rights is orthogonal to democracy. Creating a democratic country like the U.S. is the real achievement. Most countries never come close to accomplishing that.

diggan 2y ago
According to the Democracy Index (article about it here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/democracy-index-data-economist-governments-b2705687.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/democracy-index-dat...) there are about 25 "Full Democracies", 107 Non-authoritarian regimes, and 60 authoritarian regimes. Fun fact: The US isn't counted as a "Full Democracy" by that index, so seems it's not as a great of an achievement as you seem to think. I'm looking forward to see how the ranking of the US changes in 2025, seems to be slipping downwards rather than upwards sadly.
- rayiner 2y ago
  What’s the basis of that index. Are they alleging US elections are rigged?
  - machomaster 2y ago
    Why are you asking questions instead of easily reading about the index criteria?
    - mindslight 2y ago
      Playing six degrees of buttery emails.
    - throw16180339 2y ago
      He's just sealioning again.
      - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
        Or maybe these democracy index things are entirely arbitrary
      - AlexeyBelov 2y ago
        I used to like reading his comments years ago. Now it's like an enlightened reddit user, in the worst way.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      It’s just a way to say: why do you think this index is meaningful based on what it measures.
      - machomaster 2y ago
        In that case you should have actually made your case, voice what in the index you disagree with and why.
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - diggan 2y ago
    There are a lot of indicators they look at, give it a read if you're curious: https://image.b.economist.com/lib/fe8d13727c61047f7c/m/1/609fbc8d-4724-440d-b827-2c7b7300353d.pdf https://image.b.economist.com/lib/fe8d13727c61047f7c/m/1/609... (North America starts at page 44). One snippet: > However, the political and structural problems that caused the US to be downgraded to a “flawed democracy” in 2016 (a downgrade that pre-dated the inauguration of Donald Trump as president in January 2017) persist. These include low levels of trust in political institutions and the media; institutional gridlock; excessive influence of lobbyists, interest groups and the mega-rich; sharp economic and social inequalities; and an absence of social consensus on core national values.
- xyzzyz 2y ago
  Sorry, but why exactly should we care about what some random score that some people invented and named Democracy Index says? It’s not like there is some universal agreement that maximizing the score in these people’s quiz is good or proper.
  - diggan 2y ago
    At least they provide justification and reasoning behind the numbers they assign, they're not throwing darts to see what to score things. Read through the report yourself, then come back if there are specific things you disagree with. Or maybe even better, find some better research and link it here. Just saying "USA is the most democratic country in the world" feels like worse than at least trying to look at things objectively.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      I didn’t say the U.S. was the most democratic country in the world—I wasn’t comparing the U.S. to Norway or Denmark. But the U.S. achieved in the 18th century something that Germany, France, Spain, etc., didn’t achieve until the mid-20th century. That’s an achievement. And the lack of universal suffrage back in the day doesn’t diminish America’s achievement. India and Bangladesh and Iraq and many places have universal suffrage but they’re not as democratic as the U.S. was in 1789. Getting to that point is the 0 to 1 of democracy. Expanding the franchise from there is incremental development.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  This index unironically puts countries that practice government censorship in the category of full democracies. Sorry but this isn't a democracy index - it's just a progressive index.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    To lots of people, “liberal democracy” just means “liberal.”
    - boroboro4 2y ago
      Don’t worry, the US not gonna have either soon. And yes, some of the rights are essential for democracy. There is a reason bill of rights was approved at the sunrise of our democracy.
wwweston 2y ago
The founding of the US is absolutely a remarkable achievement. A group of colonies successfully broke from global imperial power to successfully establish a society heavily influenced by the best enlightenment thinking and classical civil philosophy. It's really something. Looking at some populist reactionary movements that happened in the early 19th century, one wonders if the outcome could have been as good as the US constitution even 30 years later. That said: * it existed in a historic and cultural context of states that had already made significant movements in that direction -- it was a big leap, but it wasn't simple 0-1. More like a 0.4 with a lot of the relevant ideals and institutions (elections, representation, courts, legislative bodies, executive authority, rule of law , etc) fairly well developed and demonstrated in various ways pulled together into a coherent 0.75 and woven in with enlightenment ideals as expressed in documents like the declaration of independence. * There is at least a partial linear dependence between civil rights and democracy. The franchise relationship is where it's strongest. Democracy is effective, principled, & honored ballot access. Without any effective franchise what you have instead is an opinion poll. And mere fractional access to the franchise walks elections & representation down from "1" -- it is literally the coefficient you have to multiple a "1" democracy by in order to arrive at its effective democratic nature. That's just the start, though. It's a bit like that old Churchill/Shaw/Twain/whoever story where Clever Guy™ is having a conversation with a woman: “Would you sleep with a stranger if he paid you £1,000,000?” “Yes.” “And if he paid you £5?” “£5? What do you think I am?” “We’ve already established that, now we're just haggling over the price.” Ha-ha! A country without a universal franchise has already established that some people don't get a democratic say, it's just haggling over who those people are. And that means it can haggle over whether you get to be one of those people. And even eventually over whether anyone gets to be one of those people, over whether it is democratic at all. This generalizes to other rights. In order to have them guaranteed to anyone, they must be guaranteed to everyone. It's why constitutional guarantees tend to be features of constitutional representative democracies since the enlightenment, imperfect leap though the US is. The big question is if the US (among others) can finish climbing the ladder when the political headwinds seem to be against "guaranteed to everyone."
- rayiner 2y ago
  > A country without a universal franchise has already established that some people don't get a democratic say, it's just haggling over who those people are. And that means it can haggle over whether you get to be one of those people. And even eventually over whether anyone gets to be one of those people, over whether it is democratic at all. I don't think that inductive reasoning works. Every country excludes lots of people from the franchise. The U.S. has almost 100 million people who aren't eligible to vote, mostly young people and non-citizens. No country has a truly universal franchise. Under your reasoning, that's unstable--if we can take away the franchise from 17 year olds, we can take away the franchise from 18 year olds, etc. Historically, the big democratic jumps were probably extending the franchise to prominent family heads voting, followed by landowning males.