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I've seen two apocalyptic North American scenarios in fiction, and have previously dismissed both as ridiculous. 1. In the Fallout universe, the USA annexes Ca

I've seen two apocalyptic North American scenarios in fiction, and have previously dismissed both as ridiculous. 1. In the Fallout universe, the USA annexes Canada 2. In at least two Neal Stephenson novels (Snowcrash and Termination Shock), the USA has collapsed. I've never before thought that either of these would have a semi-realistic path to actually happening.

malcolmgreaves 2y ago
And in Cyperpunk 2077, the EU rearms and asserts is power, resulting in the euro becoming the world’s currency and the US being broken into multiple competing city-states and regional governments. Also everything is ruled by corporations. We’re not on the fun timeline :(
- Trasmatta 2y ago
  Can I at least get some sick augs out of this mess?
zellyn 2y ago
In the Handmaid's Tale TV show, the US has turned into a repressive religious state horrifyingly cruel to women, and people will occasionally try to cross the border into Canada to safety.
- hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
  As a Canadian, this is increasingly becoming my best case scenario. Hopefully we can maintain our independence, and many of the freedoms and judicial process the US is currently destroying, although there are some exceptions our govt drastically needs to address * * the biggest example I expect Americans to bring up is gun control. Canada absolutely needs to revert to a logic and data based restriction approach rather than an emotional appeal over looks or otherwise. Unfortunately while 85% of the country supports some form of gun control, only one party is actively implementing it and doing it in the stupidest way possible. That being said, I expect Americans never to agree with gun control in any form, and that's OK and another reason of the many Canadians do not want to be part of the US. * Canada has mirrored the US in restricting protests and collective bargaining in some cases, and needs to step back and seriously strengthen the laws protecting its people. At the same time, some protestors also need to understand the difference between protesting and terrorizing neighbourhoods...
  - riku_iki 2y ago
    > to a logic and data based restriction approach and what would data tell why guns have to be restricted? Some questions: - what the fraction of gun crimes are commited by law-abiding citizens, which would be actually subject of restrictions? - is number of casualties high compared to casualties from knife fights, over-doze, obesity, and car accidents because of speeding Is there data for this question which would back restricting populations from having tools of self defense against tyrannic government(could happen in Canada too one day) and make it high priority for society compared to other problems?
    - ygjb 2y ago
      Not to be too glib, but rather than citing a theoretical need to stage an uprising, why not measure something more direct and practical, like the number of mass shootings. Some stats - https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-... Yes, a tyrant could take over, but the only credible threat Canada has had of that since the second world war has been our most powerful ally 'joking' about annexing us. A well-armed militia wouldn't really help to stop that given the difference in equipment and headcount between the Canadian military, and the US military. If Canadians decide that Canada needs one, we should implement a method to drive enrollment in the the Canadian Army Reserves, or implement a home defense militia that folks could enroll and participate in with a guarantee that they couldn't be deployed outside of Canada (I was in our armed forces, and would not join a volunteer unit that could be deployed overseas, but would immediately sign up for one that was only legally allowed to be deployed domestically for defense).
      - hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
        Agreed! As a Canadian, I'd love to see a resurgence of Cadets, Reserves and other methods of training civilians in proper gun use, self defence and methods to integrate with militias/military command in the event we need to domestically defend ourselves. We are smack in the middle of 2 former enemies, which in their current trajectory will become allies while making us one of their new enemies... We need to have a serious national conversation about that.
- tpurves 2y ago
  This is already happening. Canada is starting to accept Americans on refugee status. I have multiple US friends or acquaintances applying for Canadian Visas or Citizenship as either an active plan or as a contingency. A cousin of mine who is a Can/US immigration lawyer is absolutely swamped right now.
  - slaw 2y ago
    It is the first time I hear it. Do you have any source?
diggan 2y ago
> dismissed both as ridiculous I think this idealism/naiveness is why you're now sliding further and further away from democracy. Older countries already had their democracies stress-tested, but seemingly this is the biggest test so far for the "checks and balances" in the US, and I feel like many other countries learned to always live with idea that democracy can slip away really quickly unless you always pay attention.
- Trasmatta 2y ago
  How do you reconcile that idea with the fact that the United States is the oldest country with a continuously running democracy?
  - overfeed 2y ago
    You'd have to do some contortions on the current definition of "democracy" for that to be true. For most of it's history, not everyone could vote, and if that's your bar then democracy in the US is... returning to it's roots.
  - wbl 2y ago
    Why aren't you counting San Marino?
  - ForTheKidz 2y ago
    Well we've only been a true "liberal democracy" for the past sixty years or so. Before that we were a de-facto apartheid state. Maybe at a stretch you could say 105 years if you go by the 19th amendment. And frankly i'm still skittish to call America pre-Trump a democracy with my full chest given the electoral college, completely bonkers division of the country into states, the senate, complete lack of a right to vote, our continual human rights abuses in terms of poverty and imprisonment/executions, etc etc. I'm just saying there's literally dozens and dozens of countries with far more obvious realization of democratic ideals than we've ever managed to figure out, and at this point our age and blind devotion to dead assholes ("founding fathers") are major barriers to any sort of movement forward.
ForTheKidz 2y ago
I think "annexing" Canada seems a bit ludicrous still. I have no doubt Trump wants to expand, but I suspect such expansion would be deeply unpopular in a country proud, seemingly for the grace of simply not being the US (as, let's be honest, Canada is far more similar to the US than it is to any other country in north america).
- soco 2y ago
  It would be fairly difficult to be similar to any other country in North America, innit
  - ForTheKidz 2y ago
    Most countries in north america are more similar to each other than they are to the US or Canada, yes. That is precisely what I am saying. Canada is basically the colony that didn't bother.
    - soco 2y ago
      My comment was meant to be ironic, but only now I learned that all those countries below the US are not "central america" the way I thought.
      - ForTheKidz 2y ago
        What you think the US is all the way on the down-side of the app? hell no. We're the center of the universe babee.
- 0x000xca0xfe 2y ago
  Comments like yours sound eerily similar to Ukraine pre 2014 (and even 2022!). Back then the idea of a full-scale invasion was regarded as ludicrous as well.
- FredPret 2y ago
  I daresay being invaded would indeed be "deeply unpopular" here in Canada.
curt15 2y ago
What about 3. Climate change renders large swaths of the US uninhabitable, leading to an exodus into Canada?
- 0xffff2 2y ago
  Phoenix and Las Vegas are already major metropolitan areas. With enough money invested in desalination (expensive, but cheaper than migrating a whole country) it's doubtful that any part of the US will be rendered uninhabitable.
  - rchaud 2y ago
    > With enough money invested in desalination Cheaper to nullify meteorological services and browbeat media into silence and simply tell Americans everything is fine.
- giardini 2y ago
  That would be good for Canada - better weather, more laborers and capital and more reasons to complain about their friendly neighbors to the south.
Y_Y 2y ago
What about Infinite Jest's "interdependence" where a environmental disaster necessitates the merging of USA, Mexico and Canada.
WorldWideWebb 2y ago
Also Snow Crash, the US consisting of many large, corpo-owned city states (also being discussed in the current news with techbros trying to start up their own self-regulated cities).
- bergie 2y ago
  Not to mention the military agencies having fractured into for-profit corporations like CIC and "Admiral Bob's Navy" etc
  - FredPret 2y ago
    Little touches like those names, and General Jim's Defense System, and Reverend Wayne's Pearly Gates (featuring Elvis in its pantheon!) help make Stephenson's novels magical
rurp 2y ago
It's pretty wild. I'm someone who thinks that disasters and existential threats are seriously underrated by most people, but even still a decade ago I would have put the odds of a major US collapse in my lifetime at a low very number. Now though? I wouldn't even be surprised.

malcolmgreaves 2y ago

And in Cyperpunk 2077, the EU rearms and asserts is power, resulting in the euro becoming the world’s currency and the US being broken into multiple competing city-states and regional governments. Also everything is ruled by corporations. We’re not on the fun timeline :(

Trasmatta 2y ago
Can I at least get some sick augs out of this mess?

zellyn 2y ago

In the Handmaid's Tale TV show, the US has turned into a repressive religious state horrifyingly cruel to women, and people will occasionally try to cross the border into Canada to safety.

hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
As a Canadian, this is increasingly becoming my best case scenario. Hopefully we can maintain our independence, and many of the freedoms and judicial process the US is currently destroying, although there are some exceptions our govt drastically needs to address * * the biggest example I expect Americans to bring up is gun control. Canada absolutely needs to revert to a logic and data based restriction approach rather than an emotional appeal over looks or otherwise. Unfortunately while 85% of the country supports some form of gun control, only one party is actively implementing it and doing it in the stupidest way possible. That being said, I expect Americans never to agree with gun control in any form, and that's OK and another reason of the many Canadians do not want to be part of the US. * Canada has mirrored the US in restricting protests and collective bargaining in some cases, and needs to step back and seriously strengthen the laws protecting its people. At the same time, some protestors also need to understand the difference between protesting and terrorizing neighbourhoods...
- riku_iki 2y ago
  > to a logic and data based restriction approach and what would data tell why guns have to be restricted? Some questions: - what the fraction of gun crimes are commited by law-abiding citizens, which would be actually subject of restrictions? - is number of casualties high compared to casualties from knife fights, over-doze, obesity, and car accidents because of speeding Is there data for this question which would back restricting populations from having tools of self defense against tyrannic government(could happen in Canada too one day) and make it high priority for society compared to other problems?
  - ygjb 2y ago
    Not to be too glib, but rather than citing a theoretical need to stage an uprising, why not measure something more direct and practical, like the number of mass shootings. Some stats - https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-... Yes, a tyrant could take over, but the only credible threat Canada has had of that since the second world war has been our most powerful ally 'joking' about annexing us. A well-armed militia wouldn't really help to stop that given the difference in equipment and headcount between the Canadian military, and the US military. If Canadians decide that Canada needs one, we should implement a method to drive enrollment in the the Canadian Army Reserves, or implement a home defense militia that folks could enroll and participate in with a guarantee that they couldn't be deployed outside of Canada (I was in our armed forces, and would not join a volunteer unit that could be deployed overseas, but would immediately sign up for one that was only legally allowed to be deployed domestically for defense).
    - hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
      Agreed! As a Canadian, I'd love to see a resurgence of Cadets, Reserves and other methods of training civilians in proper gun use, self defence and methods to integrate with militias/military command in the event we need to domestically defend ourselves. We are smack in the middle of 2 former enemies, which in their current trajectory will become allies while making us one of their new enemies... We need to have a serious national conversation about that.
tpurves 2y ago
This is already happening. Canada is starting to accept Americans on refugee status. I have multiple US friends or acquaintances applying for Canadian Visas or Citizenship as either an active plan or as a contingency. A cousin of mine who is a Can/US immigration lawyer is absolutely swamped right now.
- slaw 2y ago
  It is the first time I hear it. Do you have any source?

diggan 2y ago

> dismissed both as ridiculous I think this idealism/naiveness is why you're now sliding further and further away from democracy. Older countries already had their democracies stress-tested, but seemingly this is the biggest test so far for the "checks and balances" in the US, and I feel like many other countries learned to always live with idea that democracy can slip away really quickly unless you always pay attention.

Trasmatta 2y ago
How do you reconcile that idea with the fact that the United States is the oldest country with a continuously running democracy?
- overfeed 2y ago
  You'd have to do some contortions on the current definition of "democracy" for that to be true. For most of it's history, not everyone could vote, and if that's your bar then democracy in the US is... returning to it's roots.
- wbl 2y ago
  Why aren't you counting San Marino?
- ForTheKidz 2y ago
  Well we've only been a true "liberal democracy" for the past sixty years or so. Before that we were a de-facto apartheid state. Maybe at a stretch you could say 105 years if you go by the 19th amendment. And frankly i'm still skittish to call America pre-Trump a democracy with my full chest given the electoral college, completely bonkers division of the country into states, the senate, complete lack of a right to vote, our continual human rights abuses in terms of poverty and imprisonment/executions, etc etc. I'm just saying there's literally dozens and dozens of countries with far more obvious realization of democratic ideals than we've ever managed to figure out, and at this point our age and blind devotion to dead assholes ("founding fathers") are major barriers to any sort of movement forward.

ForTheKidz 2y ago

I think "annexing" Canada seems a bit ludicrous still. I have no doubt Trump wants to expand, but I suspect such expansion would be deeply unpopular in a country proud, seemingly for the grace of simply not being the US (as, let's be honest, Canada is far more similar to the US than it is to any other country in north america).

soco 2y ago
It would be fairly difficult to be similar to any other country in North America, innit
- ForTheKidz 2y ago
  Most countries in north america are more similar to each other than they are to the US or Canada, yes. That is precisely what I am saying. Canada is basically the colony that didn't bother.
  - soco 2y ago
    My comment was meant to be ironic, but only now I learned that all those countries below the US are not "central america" the way I thought.
    - ForTheKidz 2y ago
      What you think the US is all the way on the down-side of the app? hell no. We're the center of the universe babee.
0x000xca0xfe 2y ago
Comments like yours sound eerily similar to Ukraine pre 2014 (and even 2022!). Back then the idea of a full-scale invasion was regarded as ludicrous as well.
FredPret 2y ago
I daresay being invaded would indeed be "deeply unpopular" here in Canada.

curt15 2y ago

What about 3. Climate change renders large swaths of the US uninhabitable, leading to an exodus into Canada?

0xffff2 2y ago
Phoenix and Las Vegas are already major metropolitan areas. With enough money invested in desalination (expensive, but cheaper than migrating a whole country) it's doubtful that any part of the US will be rendered uninhabitable.
- rchaud 2y ago
  > With enough money invested in desalination Cheaper to nullify meteorological services and browbeat media into silence and simply tell Americans everything is fine.
giardini 2y ago
That would be good for Canada - better weather, more laborers and capital and more reasons to complain about their friendly neighbors to the south.

Y_Y 2y ago

What about Infinite Jest's "interdependence" where a environmental disaster necessitates the merging of USA, Mexico and Canada.

WorldWideWebb 2y ago

Also Snow Crash, the US consisting of many large, corpo-owned city states (also being discussed in the current news with techbros trying to start up their own self-regulated cities).

bergie 2y ago
Not to mention the military agencies having fractured into for-profit corporations like CIC and "Admiral Bob's Navy" etc
- FredPret 2y ago
  Little touches like those names, and General Jim's Defense System, and Reverend Wayne's Pearly Gates (featuring Elvis in its pantheon!) help make Stephenson's novels magical

rurp 2y ago

It's pretty wild. I'm someone who thinks that disasters and existential threats are seriously underrated by most people, but even still a decade ago I would have put the odds of a major US collapse in my lifetime at a low very number. Now though? I wouldn't even be surprised.