5 ms·

I live in Mexico. About 30 mins from where I live, Amazon and others have built data centers (presumably for AI) which consume water. This is affecting agricult

by pier25 2y ago

I live in Mexico. About 30 mins from where I live, Amazon and others have built data centers (presumably for AI) which consume water. This is affecting agriculture in a region that is already suffering from drought. https://www.context.news/ai/thirsty-data-centres-spring-up-in-water-poor-mexican-town https://www.context.news/ai/thirsty-data-centres-spring-up-i...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
doctoboggan 2y ago
Genuinely curious, how much water do data centers consume? I would think they might need a good amount of water at startup, but any use would be in a closed system. Am I misunderstanding their water use? Do they lose a lot of it to the atmosphere somehow?
- physhster 2y ago
  Some data centers use evaporative cooling, in outside chillers. The water use is fairly high.
  - Robotbeat 2y ago
    Is there a reason the price of the water can’t be equal to marginal cost of getting more water, so the net effect of the data center is zero? Water can be piped in from elsewhere, can be made from reverse osmosis from even briney aquifers or seawater or even sewage. Is this really an unsolvable problem or is it just a mispricing of the water? This makes me skeptical of stories like this.
    - bobmcnamara 2y ago
      Government usually, same as it is with Nestle in the US.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      Water is fungible. If they need to pipe in 1 gallon of water, who pays the extra cost? The entity that used the last gallon? The entity that used the most? Nah. It’s averaged out across all users. You also cannot scale up these alternative sources at will. They need to be sustainably commercially viable.
      - Robotbeat 2y ago
        Right, so just make Amazon pay whatever is a commercially sustainable price. This shouldn’t be particularly hard.
        actionfromafar 2y ago
        Deregulation is good, they said. Don't be an alarmist, they said.
        Robotbeat 2y ago
        ? Yeah, actually, deregulated water would mean Amazon would have to pay the full price instead of a subsidized price for water.
        actionfromafar 2y ago
        And if it turns out that Amazon would still "win" the price fight over the people who lived there before Amazon came there, it's all good? And who owns the water? Anyone with a plot of land who can access the watertable? Anyone with a plot of land next to a river? What about those downriver from that plot? "Deregulation" is as meaningless as "defund the police". If you scratch the surface it can mean anything between total anarchy and "keep only this specific set of laws that I believe are good". What's needed is regulation which promotes a wanted outcome.
        Robotbeat 2y ago
        I was responding to someone who made a joke about an obvious mispricing by the govt as being due to deregulation when it’s really the opposite. As far as who owns the water, well for mineral water sources, I’d say the citizens do, and the best way to handle that is probably still to charge Amazon the same amount and then use the proceeds as tax revenue for the general welfare so the people don’t have to be so poor in the first place.
    - hwillis 2y ago
      > the price of the water can’t be equal to marginal cost of getting more water Increased demand by definition means consumers will pay more for the same quantity. Even if the marginal cost was flat it is in the producers interest to raise prices. You're essentially asking why markets have to do what markets do. > Water can be piped in from elsewhere, can be made from reverse osmosis from even briney aquifers or seawater or even sewage. Do you think that costs the same as pumping water out of a lake or water table? > is it just a mispricing of the water? ...You think a drought is a mispricing of water? As if water was more expensive, there would be no shortage? A draught is a mis-cost of water; when water becomes more expensive than is sustainable.
    - ForTheKidz 2y ago
      > Is there a reason the price of the water can’t be equal to marginal cost of getting more water The market is typically not a great place to solve conflict. Unless you're the richer party, of course.
  - betaby 2y ago
    I'm not aware of any single one like that in Mexico.
  - ForTheKidz 2y ago
    Jesus christ. We're a nation run by toddlers.
- quickthrowman 2y ago
  Most data centers use evaporative cooling towers, they’re much more efficient than a closed loop system.
- myaccountonhn 2y ago
  This source is specifically about AIs water usage: https://savethe.ai/water/ https://savethe.ai/water/ > Having it generate a 100-word email consumes about 500ml of water (17 oz). > 10 to 50 queries consume about 2 litres of water (½ gallon).2
  - yimby2001 2y ago
    Right, but you know that’s not true.
cicloid 2y ago
I would imagine you are talking about Queretaro. Google and Microsoft also have data centers there. This is a thing that has been more than a decade in the making, mostly because Queretaro does not have seismic activity and is only a couple of hours north of Mexico City. While the water sources are completely different, both regions are prone to intense water seasons and, in the last couple of years, intense droughts. More specifically, Queretaro is a semi-desert, so this behavior is a bit more expected. Aside: Coming from personal experience I don't think that current agricultural methods are the best and are pron to wasting water, at least what I remember from Queretaro
- pier25 2y ago
  Yes, Querétaro state (not the city). If you check the link in my comment these are not the data centers close to the city which everyone knows but newer ones in Colón.
  - cicloid 2y ago
    For all intents and purposes, Colon is considered to be part of the ZMQ (Zona Metropolitana de Queretaro)^1 Funny thing the english wikipedia article does not even mention it. But yeah, Each of those Cloud providers, have at least 3 buildings distributed on multiple industrial parks in the metropolitan area and I'm not even mentioning the ones from Kio Networks, IBM (SoftLayer). We are one step away from having one from OVH and Hetzner. The only data center I know that is in the middle of the city of Queretaro is the one from Triara (aka Telmex, one of the many companies from Carlos Slim). Most of them are in the outskirts of the urban area. 1. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zona_metropolitana_de_Quer%C3%A9taro https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zona_metropolitana_de_Quer%C3%...

by pier25 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

doctoboggan 2y ago

Genuinely curious, how much water do data centers consume? I would think they might need a good amount of water at startup, but any use would be in a closed system. Am I misunderstanding their water use? Do they lose a lot of it to the atmosphere somehow?

physhster 2y ago
Some data centers use evaporative cooling, in outside chillers. The water use is fairly high.
- Robotbeat 2y ago
  Is there a reason the price of the water can’t be equal to marginal cost of getting more water, so the net effect of the data center is zero? Water can be piped in from elsewhere, can be made from reverse osmosis from even briney aquifers or seawater or even sewage. Is this really an unsolvable problem or is it just a mispricing of the water? This makes me skeptical of stories like this.
  - bobmcnamara 2y ago
    Government usually, same as it is with Nestle in the US.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    Water is fungible. If they need to pipe in 1 gallon of water, who pays the extra cost? The entity that used the last gallon? The entity that used the most? Nah. It’s averaged out across all users. You also cannot scale up these alternative sources at will. They need to be sustainably commercially viable.
    - Robotbeat 2y ago
      Right, so just make Amazon pay whatever is a commercially sustainable price. This shouldn’t be particularly hard.
      - actionfromafar 2y ago
        Deregulation is good, they said. Don't be an alarmist, they said.
        Robotbeat 2y ago
        ? Yeah, actually, deregulated water would mean Amazon would have to pay the full price instead of a subsidized price for water.
        actionfromafar 2y ago
        And if it turns out that Amazon would still "win" the price fight over the people who lived there before Amazon came there, it's all good? And who owns the water? Anyone with a plot of land who can access the watertable? Anyone with a plot of land next to a river? What about those downriver from that plot? "Deregulation" is as meaningless as "defund the police". If you scratch the surface it can mean anything between total anarchy and "keep only this specific set of laws that I believe are good". What's needed is regulation which promotes a wanted outcome.
        Robotbeat 2y ago
        I was responding to someone who made a joke about an obvious mispricing by the govt as being due to deregulation when it’s really the opposite. As far as who owns the water, well for mineral water sources, I’d say the citizens do, and the best way to handle that is probably still to charge Amazon the same amount and then use the proceeds as tax revenue for the general welfare so the people don’t have to be so poor in the first place.
  - hwillis 2y ago
    > the price of the water can’t be equal to marginal cost of getting more water Increased demand by definition means consumers will pay more for the same quantity. Even if the marginal cost was flat it is in the producers interest to raise prices. You're essentially asking why markets have to do what markets do. > Water can be piped in from elsewhere, can be made from reverse osmosis from even briney aquifers or seawater or even sewage. Do you think that costs the same as pumping water out of a lake or water table? > is it just a mispricing of the water? ...You think a drought is a mispricing of water? As if water was more expensive, there would be no shortage? A draught is a mis-cost of water; when water becomes more expensive than is sustainable.
  - ForTheKidz 2y ago
    > Is there a reason the price of the water can’t be equal to marginal cost of getting more water The market is typically not a great place to solve conflict. Unless you're the richer party, of course.
- betaby 2y ago
  I'm not aware of any single one like that in Mexico.
- ForTheKidz 2y ago
  Jesus christ. We're a nation run by toddlers.
quickthrowman 2y ago
Most data centers use evaporative cooling towers, they’re much more efficient than a closed loop system.
myaccountonhn 2y ago
This source is specifically about AIs water usage: https://savethe.ai/water/ https://savethe.ai/water/ > Having it generate a 100-word email consumes about 500ml of water (17 oz). > 10 to 50 queries consume about 2 litres of water (½ gallon).2
- yimby2001 2y ago
  Right, but you know that’s not true.

cicloid 2y ago

I would imagine you are talking about Queretaro. Google and Microsoft also have data centers there. This is a thing that has been more than a decade in the making, mostly because Queretaro does not have seismic activity and is only a couple of hours north of Mexico City. While the water sources are completely different, both regions are prone to intense water seasons and, in the last couple of years, intense droughts. More specifically, Queretaro is a semi-desert, so this behavior is a bit more expected. Aside: Coming from personal experience I don't think that current agricultural methods are the best and are pron to wasting water, at least what I remember from Queretaro

pier25 2y ago
Yes, Querétaro state (not the city). If you check the link in my comment these are not the data centers close to the city which everyone knows but newer ones in Colón.
- cicloid 2y ago
  For all intents and purposes, Colon is considered to be part of the ZMQ (Zona Metropolitana de Queretaro)^1 Funny thing the english wikipedia article does not even mention it. But yeah, Each of those Cloud providers, have at least 3 buildings distributed on multiple industrial parks in the metropolitan area and I'm not even mentioning the ones from Kio Networks, IBM (SoftLayer). We are one step away from having one from OVH and Hetzner. The only data center I know that is in the middle of the city of Queretaro is the one from Triara (aka Telmex, one of the many companies from Carlos Slim). Most of them are in the outskirts of the urban area. 1. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zona_metropolitana_de_Quer%C3%A9taro https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zona_metropolitana_de_Quer%C3%...