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> "Develop stuff the way we want, or lose sales" I think the wants (of the EU buyers) are far less homogeneous than the group of open integration activists mak

> "Develop stuff the way we want, or lose sales" I think the wants (of the EU buyers) are far less homogeneous than the group of open integration activists make it look like, so there's no "we". We hear the opinions of the vocal ones and based on those voices regulation is enacted, but nothing changes for the silent majority. However, a lot of people in the EU may start caring if they can no longer buy what they want just because of the vocal few, and they may stop being silent about it when it touches them.

FeepingCreature 2y ago
EU buyer here, I am extremely hype for forced interop and think it almost justifies the existence of the EU on its own. Sure, most people don't care. That's the case for every regulation - policy is made by activists. Better than by corporations any day.
- xvokcarts 2y ago
  >EU buyer here, I am extremely hype for forced interop and think it almost justifies the existence of the EU on its own. That was my point. There is no "we". >That's the case for every regulation - policy is made by activists. Maybe, but when regulation made by activists starts touching the lives of people that don't care about the thing activists want, they may not like the idea of activists deciding for them. So far all the companies regulated by EU have accepted the regulation - we don't know how most people will react if suddenly something they want is not available to them because of a minority that think their expertise is above their wants.
  - FeepingCreature 2y ago
    > Maybe, but when regulation made by activists starts touching the lives of people that don't care about the thing activists want, they may not like the idea of activists deciding for them. That's not just any regulation, that's any act of government. > we don't know how most people will react if suddenly something they want is not available to them because of a minority that think their expertise is above their wants. My best guess, tbh, is apathy. That's rather why they're not activists in the first place.
    - xvokcarts 2y ago
      > My best guess, tbh, is apathy. That's rather why they're not activists in the first place. Exactly. A few people want interoperability and everyone accepts it because they don't care since it doesn't affect their lives. I'm not a policy expert, but this seems a bit like riding the high horse. The answer to "what's best for others" should not be "that which we want for ourselves" regardless of expertise. We're not talking about regulation improving human lives in general. We're talking about regulation that will stick it to foreign companies we think are too big, in the name of enabling competition, which will again, due to the real reasons for EU tech decline, come from the USA.
      - FeepingCreature 2y ago
        To be clear, I do think this regulation is best for everybody and will improve human lives, including for people in the USA. Not including the companies affected, but I don't think they're morally deserving of protection beyond the necessary.
      - troupo 2y ago
        > The answer to "what's best for others" should not be "that which we want for ourselves" regardless of expertise. Do unto others what you would do unto yourself and all that. On top of that, a lot of people want interoperability, they just don't know how to express it in terms that the regular highly technical divorced from reality crowd on HN understands. An anecdote: My mom has used Apple's Books it since it first came out. Apple keeps redesigning the app, and making it worse and more cumbersome to use. Even if there is an app that better suits my mom, I can't recommend it to her because Apple in its infinite wisdom does not let you change the default epub reader on iOS/iPadOS. And it's just on anecdote out of hundreds. There won't be a single person who wants all of the interoperability. There will be multiple people with multiple different requirements for interoperability. From epub readers to navigation apps to Pebble watches (https://ericmigi.com/blog/apple-restricts-pebble-from-being-awesome-with-iphones https://ericmigi.com/blog/apple-restricts-pebble-from-being-...). Too bad they can't express their wishes in terms of "we want interoperability", and instead express them in terms of "why the hell Apple redesigned Books again" and "why can't Pebble show notifications". Then their wishes don't count, apparently. > We're not talking about regulation improving human lives in general. We're talking about regulation that will stick it to foreign companies we think are too big How did "Let's make platforms more open to increase competition and the umber of things people can do on those platforms" become "it's bad, and only exists to stick it to big US companies" is beyond my understanding (and defies all logic, if we're honest). Sure, let's just have supranational companies create walled gardens with arbitrary rules. Nothing bad has ever come out of that.
- eszed 2y ago
  US buyer here, and I'm incredibly grateful to the EU for pushing this rope in a consumer-friendly direction.
  - troupo 2y ago
    Apple will still go out of their way to make sure these changes only stay in the EU. E.g. changing default navigation app: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2025/03/14/dma-compliance-default-maps-app-in-eu/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2025/03/14/dma-compliance-default-ma... --- start quote --- > The upcoming iOS 18.4 update introduces an option to set a default navigation app, other than Apple Maps, but unfortunately this new setting is limited to users in the EU. This one seems kind of spiteful. I get that Apple doesn’t want to make sideloading available throughout the world just because the EU and Brazil have mandated it, but they’re going to hide the very useful maps setting in countries that don’t have a DMA? --- end quote ---
troupo 2y ago
> However, a lot of people in the EU may start caring if they can no longer buy what they want just because of the vocal few, and they may stop being silent about it when it touches them. And what exactly will people not buy because of activists? Here's however, the counterexample of "companies are so good for customers why do activists try to ruin a good thing": https://mastodon.nu/@mentese@mastodon.world/114193746822022420 https://mastodon.nu/@mentese@mastodon.world/1141937468220224... --- start quote --- I’ve been an owner of Volvo’s like since I can afford to buy my own cars. Nowadays the full Volvo experience can only be achieved with a Google Account and log-in. For me it was the end of Volvo’s in my garage and I switched brands. --- end quote ---
- xvokcarts 2y ago
  > And what exactly will people not buy because of activists? I think that was my reply to a post about Apple exiting the EU market (completely unlikely IMO, since that would reduce profits), which may cause those unable to buy what they want to question the sensibility of specific regulation. > "companies are so good for customers why do activists try to ruin a good thing" I don't think anyone said that. But enacting regulation forcing Volvo to give you a full experience without Google Account login is just acting a step too late if you already bought it, or taking a step too far if you'd like to buy it but don't like it enough, and are now demanding they change it.
  - troupo 2y ago
    > . But enacting regulation forcing Volvo to give you a full experience without Google Account login is just acting a step too late if you already bought it, or taking a step too far if you'd like to buy it but don't like it enough, and are now demanding they change it. Translation: no one should demand sensible things from companies ever. Because it's either too late, or too far. How has the world, especially the tech world, become so enamoured with corporations, walled gardens, and the idea that nothing done by any corporation can ever be challenged?
    - xvokcarts 2y ago

FeepingCreature 2y ago

EU buyer here, I am extremely hype for forced interop and think it almost justifies the existence of the EU on its own. Sure, most people don't care. That's the case for every regulation - policy is made by activists. Better than by corporations any day.

xvokcarts 2y ago
>EU buyer here, I am extremely hype for forced interop and think it almost justifies the existence of the EU on its own. That was my point. There is no "we". >That's the case for every regulation - policy is made by activists. Maybe, but when regulation made by activists starts touching the lives of people that don't care about the thing activists want, they may not like the idea of activists deciding for them. So far all the companies regulated by EU have accepted the regulation - we don't know how most people will react if suddenly something they want is not available to them because of a minority that think their expertise is above their wants.
- FeepingCreature 2y ago
  > Maybe, but when regulation made by activists starts touching the lives of people that don't care about the thing activists want, they may not like the idea of activists deciding for them. That's not just any regulation, that's any act of government. > we don't know how most people will react if suddenly something they want is not available to them because of a minority that think their expertise is above their wants. My best guess, tbh, is apathy. That's rather why they're not activists in the first place.
  - xvokcarts 2y ago
    > My best guess, tbh, is apathy. That's rather why they're not activists in the first place. Exactly. A few people want interoperability and everyone accepts it because they don't care since it doesn't affect their lives. I'm not a policy expert, but this seems a bit like riding the high horse. The answer to "what's best for others" should not be "that which we want for ourselves" regardless of expertise. We're not talking about regulation improving human lives in general. We're talking about regulation that will stick it to foreign companies we think are too big, in the name of enabling competition, which will again, due to the real reasons for EU tech decline, come from the USA.
    - FeepingCreature 2y ago
      To be clear, I do think this regulation is best for everybody and will improve human lives, including for people in the USA. Not including the companies affected, but I don't think they're morally deserving of protection beyond the necessary.
    - troupo 2y ago
      > The answer to "what's best for others" should not be "that which we want for ourselves" regardless of expertise. Do unto others what you would do unto yourself and all that. On top of that, a lot of people want interoperability, they just don't know how to express it in terms that the regular highly technical divorced from reality crowd on HN understands. An anecdote: My mom has used Apple's Books it since it first came out. Apple keeps redesigning the app, and making it worse and more cumbersome to use. Even if there is an app that better suits my mom, I can't recommend it to her because Apple in its infinite wisdom does not let you change the default epub reader on iOS/iPadOS. And it's just on anecdote out of hundreds. There won't be a single person who wants all of the interoperability. There will be multiple people with multiple different requirements for interoperability. From epub readers to navigation apps to Pebble watches (https://ericmigi.com/blog/apple-restricts-pebble-from-being-awesome-with-iphones https://ericmigi.com/blog/apple-restricts-pebble-from-being-...). Too bad they can't express their wishes in terms of "we want interoperability", and instead express them in terms of "why the hell Apple redesigned Books again" and "why can't Pebble show notifications". Then their wishes don't count, apparently. > We're not talking about regulation improving human lives in general. We're talking about regulation that will stick it to foreign companies we think are too big How did "Let's make platforms more open to increase competition and the umber of things people can do on those platforms" become "it's bad, and only exists to stick it to big US companies" is beyond my understanding (and defies all logic, if we're honest). Sure, let's just have supranational companies create walled gardens with arbitrary rules. Nothing bad has ever come out of that.
eszed 2y ago
US buyer here, and I'm incredibly grateful to the EU for pushing this rope in a consumer-friendly direction.
- troupo 2y ago
  Apple will still go out of their way to make sure these changes only stay in the EU. E.g. changing default navigation app: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2025/03/14/dma-compliance-default-maps-app-in-eu/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2025/03/14/dma-compliance-default-ma... --- start quote --- > The upcoming iOS 18.4 update introduces an option to set a default navigation app, other than Apple Maps, but unfortunately this new setting is limited to users in the EU. This one seems kind of spiteful. I get that Apple doesn’t want to make sideloading available throughout the world just because the EU and Brazil have mandated it, but they’re going to hide the very useful maps setting in countries that don’t have a DMA? --- end quote ---

troupo 2y ago

> However, a lot of people in the EU may start caring if they can no longer buy what they want just because of the vocal few, and they may stop being silent about it when it touches them. And what exactly will people not buy because of activists? Here's however, the counterexample of "companies are so good for customers why do activists try to ruin a good thing": https://mastodon.nu/@mentese@mastodon.world/114193746822022420 https://mastodon.nu/@mentese@mastodon.world/1141937468220224... --- start quote --- I’ve been an owner of Volvo’s like since I can afford to buy my own cars. Nowadays the full Volvo experience can only be achieved with a Google Account and log-in. For me it was the end of Volvo’s in my garage and I switched brands. --- end quote ---

xvokcarts 2y ago
> And what exactly will people not buy because of activists? I think that was my reply to a post about Apple exiting the EU market (completely unlikely IMO, since that would reduce profits), which may cause those unable to buy what they want to question the sensibility of specific regulation. > "companies are so good for customers why do activists try to ruin a good thing" I don't think anyone said that. But enacting regulation forcing Volvo to give you a full experience without Google Account login is just acting a step too late if you already bought it, or taking a step too far if you'd like to buy it but don't like it enough, and are now demanding they change it.
- troupo 2y ago
  > . But enacting regulation forcing Volvo to give you a full experience without Google Account login is just acting a step too late if you already bought it, or taking a step too far if you'd like to buy it but don't like it enough, and are now demanding they change it. Translation: no one should demand sensible things from companies ever. Because it's either too late, or too far. How has the world, especially the tech world, become so enamoured with corporations, walled gardens, and the idea that nothing done by any corporation can ever be challenged?
  - xvokcarts 2y ago