4 ms·

Solar calendar user, meet lunar calendar user.

thaumasiotes 2y ago
I'm not seeing how the time of sunrise and sunset differ according to whether your calendar follows the sun or the moon. Ramadan wanders through the solar year, sometimes occurring in the summer, sometimes in the winter, because it is scheduled according to the lunar cycle. But the fact that Stockholm has a lot more daylight during summer than Mecca does is just a consequence of the layout of the Earth. They both have summer at the same time. The effects are what's different.
- travisjungroth 2y ago
  If you use a solar calendar, the difference would only be by location. Solar calendar users already experience that. It applies for day-to-day stuff, but I actually can't think of any events explicitly tied to sunrise/sunset in a Western/Christian calendar. So you really need that to experience the full extreme, which Ramadan has. Jewish holidays have that too, with the new day starting at sunset. But the calendar is lunisolar, so it wobbles buts doesn't drift. Islamic calendar has maximum differences.
  - bloppe 2y ago
    That's why people who use lunar calendars tend to live closer to the equator, where the annual effects of the Earth's tilt are negligible and the lunar cycle is much more noticeable
  - achierius 2y ago
    Before the modern era, Christian countries also demarcated their hours according to sunrise and sunset; even today, Catholic and Orthodox monasteries and seminaries use these for the Liturgy of the Hours. https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgy-of-the-hours https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgy-of-the-hour...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - AStonesThrow 2y ago
      I suppose they do/did, but quite an unfamiliar practice out here in Phoenix. Rome today: https://wdtprs.com/2024/04/rome-24-3-day-13-14-easter-tuesday-and-wednesday-quaeritur-the-ave-maria-bell-explained-even-too-much/ https://wdtprs.com/2024/04/rome-24-3-day-13-14-easter-tuesda... Any public liturgy around here is fixed to civil time so that normal laypeople can join.
- antasvara 2y ago
  >Ramadan wanders through the solar year, sometimes occurring in the summer, sometimes in the winter, because it is scheduled according to the lunar cycle. To be honest, that's the difference people are talking about (at least to my understanding). Because Ramadan follows a lunar calendar, the sunrise on the first day of Ramadan in Stockholm could happen anywhere from ~3:30am to ~8:45am depending on the year. If I were using a lunar calendar as my actual calendar, the first day of the year would also have a sunrise time that varied significantly.
  - walrus01 2y ago
    The start and the end of ramadan (the month) are based entirely on the lunar calendar, and the islamic authorities that your particular branch of the faith sighting the moon by eyeball, but the length of time per day that you're obligated to fast are based on sunrise and sunset, which is obviously solar.
    - AStonesThrow 2y ago
      > sunrise and sunset, which is obviously solar Is it now? I mean, yes the sighting of the Sun is a solar-related reckoning of time, but the solar calendar is based on the Earth's orbit around our Sun and the way that orbit changes the Earth's relative axial tilt in relation to the part which faces Sunward, yes? On the other hand, a sunrise and sunset are not so much dependent on our orbit at all, but your particular latitude and longitude at any given point in time. Sunrise and sunset, in terms of orbital mechanics, aren't dependent on Earth's position in space or its orbit, but on the observer's position on Earth: where either the terrain/shadow obscures the Sun from our view or it doesn't. You can easily modify the phenomena of sunrise or sunset by traveling elsewhere, regardless of the solar calendar's season or our axial tilt. Our solar and lunar calendars are reckoned by solar and lunar activity, and Earthbound Leadership adjusts those calendars so that they're calibrated to that activity. On the contrary, with our civil time fixed in an abstract 24-hour cycle and sliced up into 60-minute time zones (give or take), sidereal time is sort of divorced from clock time, and we rarely attempt, in modern times, to calibrate civil time according to the Sun's actual meridians at all -- but we do, in fact, find it necessary to compensate for variations in the Earth's rotation. Ask any astronaut about sunrise and sunset, because for a satellite orbiting Earth, the Moon, or a probe which is traveling somewhere, those are alien or malleable constructs.

I'm not seeing how the time of sunrise and sunset differ according to whether your calendar follows the sun or the moon. Ramadan wanders through the solar year, sometimes occurring in the summer, sometimes in the winter, because it is scheduled according to the lunar cycle. But the fact that Stockholm has a lot more daylight during summer than Mecca does is just a consequence of the layout of the Earth. They both have summer at the same time. The effects are what's different.

travisjungroth 2y ago
If you use a solar calendar, the difference would only be by location. Solar calendar users already experience that. It applies for day-to-day stuff, but I actually can't think of any events explicitly tied to sunrise/sunset in a Western/Christian calendar. So you really need that to experience the full extreme, which Ramadan has. Jewish holidays have that too, with the new day starting at sunset. But the calendar is lunisolar, so it wobbles buts doesn't drift. Islamic calendar has maximum differences.
- bloppe 2y ago
  That's why people who use lunar calendars tend to live closer to the equator, where the annual effects of the Earth's tilt are negligible and the lunar cycle is much more noticeable
- achierius 2y ago
  Before the modern era, Christian countries also demarcated their hours according to sunrise and sunset; even today, Catholic and Orthodox monasteries and seminaries use these for the Liturgy of the Hours. https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgy-of-the-hours https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgy-of-the-hour...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    I suppose they do/did, but quite an unfamiliar practice out here in Phoenix. Rome today: https://wdtprs.com/2024/04/rome-24-3-day-13-14-easter-tuesday-and-wednesday-quaeritur-the-ave-maria-bell-explained-even-too-much/ https://wdtprs.com/2024/04/rome-24-3-day-13-14-easter-tuesda... Any public liturgy around here is fixed to civil time so that normal laypeople can join.
antasvara 2y ago
>Ramadan wanders through the solar year, sometimes occurring in the summer, sometimes in the winter, because it is scheduled according to the lunar cycle. To be honest, that's the difference people are talking about (at least to my understanding). Because Ramadan follows a lunar calendar, the sunrise on the first day of Ramadan in Stockholm could happen anywhere from ~3:30am to ~8:45am depending on the year. If I were using a lunar calendar as my actual calendar, the first day of the year would also have a sunrise time that varied significantly.
- walrus01 2y ago
  The start and the end of ramadan (the month) are based entirely on the lunar calendar, and the islamic authorities that your particular branch of the faith sighting the moon by eyeball, but the length of time per day that you're obligated to fast are based on sunrise and sunset, which is obviously solar.
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    > sunrise and sunset, which is obviously solar Is it now? I mean, yes the sighting of the Sun is a solar-related reckoning of time, but the solar calendar is based on the Earth's orbit around our Sun and the way that orbit changes the Earth's relative axial tilt in relation to the part which faces Sunward, yes? On the other hand, a sunrise and sunset are not so much dependent on our orbit at all, but your particular latitude and longitude at any given point in time. Sunrise and sunset, in terms of orbital mechanics, aren't dependent on Earth's position in space or its orbit, but on the observer's position on Earth: where either the terrain/shadow obscures the Sun from our view or it doesn't. You can easily modify the phenomena of sunrise or sunset by traveling elsewhere, regardless of the solar calendar's season or our axial tilt. Our solar and lunar calendars are reckoned by solar and lunar activity, and Earthbound Leadership adjusts those calendars so that they're calibrated to that activity. On the contrary, with our civil time fixed in an abstract 24-hour cycle and sliced up into 60-minute time zones (give or take), sidereal time is sort of divorced from clock time, and we rarely attempt, in modern times, to calibrate civil time according to the Sun's actual meridians at all -- but we do, in fact, find it necessary to compensate for variations in the Earth's rotation. Ask any astronaut about sunrise and sunset, because for a satellite orbiting Earth, the Moon, or a probe which is traveling somewhere, those are alien or malleable constructs.