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I wish the EU was a little less short sighted with this regulation. It's completely fair to request that Apple provide APIs for interoperability purposes. And

I wish the EU was a little less short sighted with this regulation. It's completely fair to request that Apple provide APIs for interoperability purposes. And these requests obviously need to come initially from third party hardware developers. But there needs to be some mechanism for protecting the privacy and security of users that is evaluated by experts and not EU regulators. It's very obvious that companies e.g. Meta are trying to abuse the DMA in order to try to get more user data and not for interoperability purposes. And it's not what the world needs right now.

bigyabai 2y ago
> But there needs to be some mechanism for protecting the privacy and security of users That sounds like an implementation issue that can be solved by Apple securing their runtime and APIs.
- threeseed 2y ago
  This has nothing to do with the security of APIs. Meta has been requesting things like access to all Messages, Photos, Call Logs etc under the guise of interoperability but which would be an unprecedented gift of private data.
  - bigyabai 2y ago
    Meta already profiles and molests the data of iOS users in Safari. Apple can try to play superhero net-nanny for their userbase, but the choice to give a company your data is a deliberate choice. After all, you can't use either MacOS or iOS without agreeing to Apple's own EULA. It's facetious to pretend that Facebook users aren't aware of what they're getting into post Cambridge Analytica. Apple has no right to moderate what iPhone users run on their hardware any more than they can on Mac. That includes borderline malware like Avast Antivirus and the Facebook app.
    - threeseed 2y ago
      Please enlighten me how Meta has access to my call logs, messages etc. They don't. These are entirely new datasets.
      - bigyabai 2y ago
        They buy it from your telecom provider for pennies on the dollar, then connect your phone number to the shadow profile associated with your identity scraped from your friend's posts, photos and uploaded contact info. Very common in regulatory derelict-states like the US. The solution is consumer protections, not begging for a stronger corporate nanny.
        threeseed 2y ago
        a) We are talking about EU not US. b) No telecom provider has access to my photos, messages etc.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  Security and privacy are two different concepts. Securing an API has no impact on whether the data being provided via that API is private or not.
  - bigyabai 2y ago
    That's how APIs should be. Apple doesn't treat HTML as an endpoint that needs discriminatory features to prevent users from sending private information. That's how all of their software should work, as it already does on Mac.
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      You said: >That sounds like an implementation issue that can be solved by Apple securing their runtime and APIs. In response to someone saying privacy of users needs to be protected. Privacy isn't solved by implementing a secure API.
      - bigyabai 2y ago
        Privacy is not solved by trusting one corporation's service over another, either. Apple cannot exercise private entitlements to deny competitors fair access to their features. Therefore, the current entitlements they use need to be secured for them to be ready for third-party users. I am not saying this is a panacea. I am acknowledging that Apple has to reconsider what their security model looks like in the face of new demands.
        ziddoap 2y ago
        >Privacy is not solved by trusting one corporation's service over another, either. I didn't say it was. >Apple cannot exercise private entitlements to deny competitors fair access to their features. I didn't say they could. I just don't like the conflation of privacy and security. They are distinct.
        bigyabai 2y ago
kmeisthax 2y ago
Apple forfeited the right to be safety arbiter for their users when they used it as a cudgel to extract supra-competitive profits from customers. Same reason why we drenched the US phone system in red tape back in the 80s and 90s to make phone service competitive. It led to a shitton of funny scams but it also is the only reason why we got home Internet service at all. The phone companies were screaming up and down about how dial-up Internet was going to kill the phone network, but we didn't listen and made them work around it. As for Facebook[0] "abusing the DMA", the correct solution for that is for the EU to put interoperability restrictions on Facebook that let us use Facebook without their shitty apps. Apple should be allowed to write a third-party Facebook client so that people can uninstall Facebook without losing access to their friends still using it. [0] It is always ethical to deadname corporations.
iamkonstantin 2y ago
> there needs to be some mechanism for protecting the privacy and security of users Apple is not in a position to be the one evaluating security of 3rd party offers. Apple markets itself as one but the reality is that it’s a conflict of interest for them to perform this function. It’s also not up to Apple to decide what privacy is and later change their minds because for example Apple Intelligence needs access to “personal context” or they receive information requests from the US government, or similar. All companies operating within the EU are subject to privacy and consumer protection regulations and allowing for interoperability doesn’t change any of that.

bigyabai 2y ago

> But there needs to be some mechanism for protecting the privacy and security of users That sounds like an implementation issue that can be solved by Apple securing their runtime and APIs.

threeseed 2y ago
This has nothing to do with the security of APIs. Meta has been requesting things like access to all Messages, Photos, Call Logs etc under the guise of interoperability but which would be an unprecedented gift of private data.
- bigyabai 2y ago
  Meta already profiles and molests the data of iOS users in Safari. Apple can try to play superhero net-nanny for their userbase, but the choice to give a company your data is a deliberate choice. After all, you can't use either MacOS or iOS without agreeing to Apple's own EULA. It's facetious to pretend that Facebook users aren't aware of what they're getting into post Cambridge Analytica. Apple has no right to moderate what iPhone users run on their hardware any more than they can on Mac. That includes borderline malware like Avast Antivirus and the Facebook app.
  - threeseed 2y ago
    Please enlighten me how Meta has access to my call logs, messages etc. They don't. These are entirely new datasets.
    - bigyabai 2y ago
      They buy it from your telecom provider for pennies on the dollar, then connect your phone number to the shadow profile associated with your identity scraped from your friend's posts, photos and uploaded contact info. Very common in regulatory derelict-states like the US. The solution is consumer protections, not begging for a stronger corporate nanny.
      - threeseed 2y ago
        a) We are talking about EU not US. b) No telecom provider has access to my photos, messages etc.
ziddoap 2y ago
Security and privacy are two different concepts. Securing an API has no impact on whether the data being provided via that API is private or not.
- bigyabai 2y ago
  That's how APIs should be. Apple doesn't treat HTML as an endpoint that needs discriminatory features to prevent users from sending private information. That's how all of their software should work, as it already does on Mac.
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    You said: >That sounds like an implementation issue that can be solved by Apple securing their runtime and APIs. In response to someone saying privacy of users needs to be protected. Privacy isn't solved by implementing a secure API.
    - bigyabai 2y ago
      Privacy is not solved by trusting one corporation's service over another, either. Apple cannot exercise private entitlements to deny competitors fair access to their features. Therefore, the current entitlements they use need to be secured for them to be ready for third-party users. I am not saying this is a panacea. I am acknowledging that Apple has to reconsider what their security model looks like in the face of new demands.
      - ziddoap 2y ago
        >Privacy is not solved by trusting one corporation's service over another, either. I didn't say it was. >Apple cannot exercise private entitlements to deny competitors fair access to their features. I didn't say they could. I just don't like the conflation of privacy and security. They are distinct.
        bigyabai 2y ago

kmeisthax 2y ago

Apple forfeited the right to be safety arbiter for their users when they used it as a cudgel to extract supra-competitive profits from customers. Same reason why we drenched the US phone system in red tape back in the 80s and 90s to make phone service competitive. It led to a shitton of funny scams but it also is the only reason why we got home Internet service at all. The phone companies were screaming up and down about how dial-up Internet was going to kill the phone network, but we didn't listen and made them work around it. As for Facebook[0] "abusing the DMA", the correct solution for that is for the EU to put interoperability restrictions on Facebook that let us use Facebook without their shitty apps. Apple should be allowed to write a third-party Facebook client so that people can uninstall Facebook without losing access to their friends still using it. [0] It is always ethical to deadname corporations.

iamkonstantin 2y ago

> there needs to be some mechanism for protecting the privacy and security of users Apple is not in a position to be the one evaluating security of 3rd party offers. Apple markets itself as one but the reality is that it’s a conflict of interest for them to perform this function. It’s also not up to Apple to decide what privacy is and later change their minds because for example Apple Intelligence needs access to “personal context” or they receive information requests from the US government, or similar. All companies operating within the EU are subject to privacy and consumer protection regulations and allowing for interoperability doesn’t change any of that.