3 ms·

To be blunt, your perspective does not align with reality. The reality is that transgender Americans have been doing these things, all these things, for many d

To be blunt, your perspective does not align with reality. The reality is that transgender Americans have been doing these things, all these things, for many decades. And nobody, and I do mean nobody, cared. Ultimately you are not inspecting penises in the Men's room. You, yourself, do not care. What do you believe transgender people did in the 70s, or 80s, or 90s? You've never thought about it because you know, deep down, it's not a real issue. But, if you do think about it - or better yet, just ask them - you'd know they've already been doing these things. Women do not run into burly men with beards when they go to the women's room. Do you know why? Because those transgender men have always gone to the men's room, and have never been questioned. Never been questioned, until conservatives decided to question it. I have been alive for a long time now. We always knew trans people existed. Nobody batted an eye. Conservatives too, including conservatives that exist still, and including even you. Yes, that's correct - I am speaking for you, because I know you were not protesting these things in the 2010s, or the 2000s, or the 90s, or the 80s, or the 70s. So no, you don't care, and no, you yourself believe these are not real issues. You might not say that now, because as I've already stated, the conservatives brought it into the zeitgeist to distract you. And now, you are distracted. Before, you were not. And, to you and other conservatives, you should focus. The economy is in danger. Due process is being violated. Our constitution is in hot water. The American right has been able to propagandize you, and others, so completely and so severely, that you not only do not pay attention to these issues, but you legitimately think you willingly chose to not pay attention. You didn't choose anything, this was carefully crafted for you. I challenge you to think back to an earlier time you were alive and question what you saw then.

yusaythat 2y ago
I grew up in locker rooms. I started swimming competitively at age 7. The whole, "you were actually surrounded by trans people your whole life and never knew it till 5 years ago!" is absolutely delusional and my guess is you don't actually have much experience in men's rooms at all.
- consteval 2y ago
  I have, of course, been in Men's rooms. In my experiences in Men's rooms, I have seen remarkably few penises. These transgender people did not suddenly pop out of nowhere. For context, I know several trans women who are in their 50s, and transitioned a long time ago. I see with transgender people what I saw with homosexuals. That they were some type of phenomena, a new social contagion. That they are on the attack. I thought, surely the general population would never be stupid enough to fall for such an obvious falsehood yet again. Of course they've always existed.
  - yusaythat 2y ago
    All of the boys in the swim club changed together. All the boys in middle school and high school sports changed together. As an adult, working out at gyms and rec centers, all the men change and shower and talk and joke butt naked. Half the YMCAs I've been to over the years have a group of old guys that will tease you for being shy. The high school swim team I was on was... wild, I guess I'll say. Not buying what you're selling, sorry.
    - consteval 2y ago
      There are children who are transgender today and they're not changing in front of other's. I don't know where this delusional that dudes are just hanging brain around women is coming from. You're right, that doesn't happen. That's a conservative's wet dream. I'm sure you, and others, would be beyond ecstatic if transgender people were doing that. Maybe then, you'd have a smidge of justification for all this. For the record, nobody actually cares if you're "buying what I'm selling". You're missing the big picture here. These people aren't a threat to anyone, and to suggest otherwise is un-American. You can either face the reality that lays before you, or you can continue to be ridiculed for having obviously false beliefs. The world around you doesn't rely on you "buying" anything.
      - yusaythat 2y ago
        You and another poster in this thread keep trying strawman me with "trans people aren't a threat" stuff but I never said anything about any threat. I responded, explicitly, to your post that trans people have actually been passing in their preferred changing rooms forever, and I can tell you from years of personal experience (perhaps if I said, "my lived experience", you'd listen better?) that they have not. As another posted has pointed out, women have been complaining about this for decades. Your paragraph about "hanging brain" and conservative wet dreams is simply unhinged and your attempt at putting words in my mouth is unimpressive.
bobalob 2y ago
Feminists were protesting this way back in the 1970s. Janice Raymond even wrote a popular book about it. Here's a review of her book, from 1979, which lays out many of the same points around this issue as are being discussed today: https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-...
- consteval 2y ago
  While these sub-ideologies did exist, they were fringe. This is now a primary issue for conservatives and it has been brought into the zeitgeist and their political platforms. That is different. Most, close to all, conservatives were not considering this in the late 70s. I know you know that.
  - bobalob 2y ago
    Not as fringe as you may believe. Raymond's book sold a lot of copies. But more impactfully, radical feminist ideas on this topic and others continued to develop, and became increasingly influential from then to now. One aspect of this that often isn't considered is how women with shared feminist ideals but differing political backgrounds have been working together across the aisle. As a result, radical feminists on the left have had significant influence on conservative policymakers via these informal collaborations. Look at EO 14168 for example.
enoch_r 2y ago
> The reality is that transgender Americans have been doing these things, all these things, for many decades. Do you have any evidence for that? For example, do you have evidence of any of these happening in the US before, say, 1990? - any openly transgender athlete participating in sports on the team of their preferred gender rather than their sex assigned at birth? - large numbers of children receiving "gender-affirming" hormones or puberty blockers? - transgender prisoners being housed with the sex they identify as, regardless of whether they actually "present as" that sex? - a transgender woman being accepted to attend a all-women college? Maybe all of these happened quietly, so common and uncontroversial that they were totally unremarked upon. But surely there's some evidence that they occurred? For me it simply doesn't pass the laugh test that a trans woman with a penis could walk into a nude spa in the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s without anyone batting an eye.
- ok_dad 2y ago
  Nice steel manning, of course transgender people without bottom surgery don’t walk into nude spas. If you find a single example, great, find me the hundreds of examples you folks claim there are which threaten you. You’re not arguing honestly, just coming up with wild situations that don’t match reality. You may be uninformed, or misinformed, I suggest you actually read more than surface articles on Fox News.
  - enoch_r 2y ago
    I don't claim that there are hundreds of examples of this. My claim: - A: today, the left, broadly construed, insists that there is a right for transgender women to go into women-only spaces, including nude spas. For my point, it doesn't matter how often this "right" is exercised - merely that the left asserts that there is such a right. - B: this was not true of the left 6 years ago (or 45 years ago). - Consteval's claim that the left is merely defending "settled," uncontroversial rights that trans people have had for decades is therefore wrong. Evidence for A: In 2021, a 52 year old sex offender who had been convicted in multiple instances of indecent exposure went into a nude spa. It caused a huge controversy with dueling protests and counterprotests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi_Spa_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi_Spa_controversy In San Francisco, a Russian nude spa announced a policy that 1 night a month would be "ladies only" for people who were assigned that sex at birth, to provide a "phallus-free environment." For that decision, they were investigated by the San Francisco Human Rights Commission. They reversed their policy after this intervention. https://web.archive.org/web/20250307232755/https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/archimedes-banya-sf-bathhouse-transgender-20204401.php https://web.archive.org/web/20250307232755/https://www.sfchr... https://sfstandard.com/2025/03/12/archimedes-banya-ladies-night-trans-women-updated-policy/ https://sfstandard.com/2025/03/12/archimedes-banya-ladies-ni... In Washington, a Korean spa which requires nudity for some services restricted people from male genitalia from entering the facility. A transgender woman with male genitalia was denied service at the facility and sued: https://www.courthousenews.com/after-banning-trans-women-washington-spa-fights-antidiscrimination-laws-at-ninth-circuit/ https://www.courthousenews.com/after-banning-trans-women-was... So it seems to me that either: - transgender women without bottom surgery could go into nude spas in 1970 without issue, or - I'm wrong about A, and the left doesn't actually insist that trans women have a right to women-only spaces, or - Consteval is mistaken, and people on the left are in fact pushing for more rights for transgender people that were not settled 6 years ago (or 55 years ago). I'm asking for some evidence I'm wrong, you're just saying it doesn't really matter if I'm wrong - it's unlikely to affect me personally. Maybe! Nevertheless...

yusaythat 2y ago

I grew up in locker rooms. I started swimming competitively at age 7. The whole, "you were actually surrounded by trans people your whole life and never knew it till 5 years ago!" is absolutely delusional and my guess is you don't actually have much experience in men's rooms at all.

consteval 2y ago
I have, of course, been in Men's rooms. In my experiences in Men's rooms, I have seen remarkably few penises. These transgender people did not suddenly pop out of nowhere. For context, I know several trans women who are in their 50s, and transitioned a long time ago. I see with transgender people what I saw with homosexuals. That they were some type of phenomena, a new social contagion. That they are on the attack. I thought, surely the general population would never be stupid enough to fall for such an obvious falsehood yet again. Of course they've always existed.
- yusaythat 2y ago
  All of the boys in the swim club changed together. All the boys in middle school and high school sports changed together. As an adult, working out at gyms and rec centers, all the men change and shower and talk and joke butt naked. Half the YMCAs I've been to over the years have a group of old guys that will tease you for being shy. The high school swim team I was on was... wild, I guess I'll say. Not buying what you're selling, sorry.
  - consteval 2y ago
    There are children who are transgender today and they're not changing in front of other's. I don't know where this delusional that dudes are just hanging brain around women is coming from. You're right, that doesn't happen. That's a conservative's wet dream. I'm sure you, and others, would be beyond ecstatic if transgender people were doing that. Maybe then, you'd have a smidge of justification for all this. For the record, nobody actually cares if you're "buying what I'm selling". You're missing the big picture here. These people aren't a threat to anyone, and to suggest otherwise is un-American. You can either face the reality that lays before you, or you can continue to be ridiculed for having obviously false beliefs. The world around you doesn't rely on you "buying" anything.
    - yusaythat 2y ago
      You and another poster in this thread keep trying strawman me with "trans people aren't a threat" stuff but I never said anything about any threat. I responded, explicitly, to your post that trans people have actually been passing in their preferred changing rooms forever, and I can tell you from years of personal experience (perhaps if I said, "my lived experience", you'd listen better?) that they have not. As another posted has pointed out, women have been complaining about this for decades. Your paragraph about "hanging brain" and conservative wet dreams is simply unhinged and your attempt at putting words in my mouth is unimpressive.

bobalob 2y ago

Feminists were protesting this way back in the 1970s. Janice Raymond even wrote a popular book about it. Here's a review of her book, from 1979, which lays out many of the same points around this issue as are being discussed today: https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-...

consteval 2y ago
While these sub-ideologies did exist, they were fringe. This is now a primary issue for conservatives and it has been brought into the zeitgeist and their political platforms. That is different. Most, close to all, conservatives were not considering this in the late 70s. I know you know that.
- bobalob 2y ago
  Not as fringe as you may believe. Raymond's book sold a lot of copies. But more impactfully, radical feminist ideas on this topic and others continued to develop, and became increasingly influential from then to now. One aspect of this that often isn't considered is how women with shared feminist ideals but differing political backgrounds have been working together across the aisle. As a result, radical feminists on the left have had significant influence on conservative policymakers via these informal collaborations. Look at EO 14168 for example.

enoch_r 2y ago

> The reality is that transgender Americans have been doing these things, all these things, for many decades. Do you have any evidence for that? For example, do you have evidence of any of these happening in the US before, say, 1990? - any openly transgender athlete participating in sports on the team of their preferred gender rather than their sex assigned at birth? - large numbers of children receiving "gender-affirming" hormones or puberty blockers? - transgender prisoners being housed with the sex they identify as, regardless of whether they actually "present as" that sex? - a transgender woman being accepted to attend a all-women college? Maybe all of these happened quietly, so common and uncontroversial that they were totally unremarked upon. But surely there's some evidence that they occurred? For me it simply doesn't pass the laugh test that a trans woman with a penis could walk into a nude spa in the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s without anyone batting an eye.

ok_dad 2y ago
Nice steel manning, of course transgender people without bottom surgery don’t walk into nude spas. If you find a single example, great, find me the hundreds of examples you folks claim there are which threaten you. You’re not arguing honestly, just coming up with wild situations that don’t match reality. You may be uninformed, or misinformed, I suggest you actually read more than surface articles on Fox News.
- enoch_r 2y ago
  I don't claim that there are hundreds of examples of this. My claim: - A: today, the left, broadly construed, insists that there is a right for transgender women to go into women-only spaces, including nude spas. For my point, it doesn't matter how often this "right" is exercised - merely that the left asserts that there is such a right. - B: this was not true of the left 6 years ago (or 45 years ago). - Consteval's claim that the left is merely defending "settled," uncontroversial rights that trans people have had for decades is therefore wrong. Evidence for A: In 2021, a 52 year old sex offender who had been convicted in multiple instances of indecent exposure went into a nude spa. It caused a huge controversy with dueling protests and counterprotests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi_Spa_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi_Spa_controversy In San Francisco, a Russian nude spa announced a policy that 1 night a month would be "ladies only" for people who were assigned that sex at birth, to provide a "phallus-free environment." For that decision, they were investigated by the San Francisco Human Rights Commission. They reversed their policy after this intervention. https://web.archive.org/web/20250307232755/https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/archimedes-banya-sf-bathhouse-transgender-20204401.php https://web.archive.org/web/20250307232755/https://www.sfchr... https://sfstandard.com/2025/03/12/archimedes-banya-ladies-night-trans-women-updated-policy/ https://sfstandard.com/2025/03/12/archimedes-banya-ladies-ni... In Washington, a Korean spa which requires nudity for some services restricted people from male genitalia from entering the facility. A transgender woman with male genitalia was denied service at the facility and sued: https://www.courthousenews.com/after-banning-trans-women-washington-spa-fights-antidiscrimination-laws-at-ninth-circuit/ https://www.courthousenews.com/after-banning-trans-women-was... So it seems to me that either: - transgender women without bottom surgery could go into nude spas in 1970 without issue, or - I'm wrong about A, and the left doesn't actually insist that trans women have a right to women-only spaces, or - Consteval is mistaken, and people on the left are in fact pushing for more rights for transgender people that were not settled 6 years ago (or 55 years ago). I'm asking for some evidence I'm wrong, you're just saying it doesn't really matter if I'm wrong - it's unlikely to affect me personally. Maybe! Nevertheless...