4 ms·

This is offtopic (and not affiliated in any way), but I recently read this blog post [https://benthams.substack.com/p/what-to-do-if-you-love-meat-but-hate https

This is offtopic (and not affiliated in any way), but I recently read this blog post [https://benthams.substack.com/p/what-to-do-if-you-love-meat-but-hate https://benthams.substack.com/p/what-to-do-if-you-love-meat-...] which gave me an interesting point of view about this, much in line with what you are saying, but most importantly, an actionable (and easy if you have some spare money) thing to do. I have since started donating to the mentioned organization, because I can't really bring myself to stop eating meat for several reasons (although I do avoid octopus just as you do), but at least this way I believe I might make a small difference. Also, I recommend not reading the linked post about factory farm hell if you'd like to avoid having horrific descriptions planted in your head for weeks.

waffletower 2y ago
I love meat yet stopped eating all mammalian and fowl protein more than 30 years ago. I compromised with fish, but have gone long stretches without. Yet somehow protein is still very primary in my diet. As many people speak of this difficulty to evolve and change their diet, I have come to theorize that people have a deep seated cultural need for sacrifice -- something must die for their meal to be legitimate. The OP/OA explores the history of this idea. With all of the well developed plant protein options, some imitative of meats and others unique and viable, and the obvious looming problem of scaling livestock production with population growth and climate change, there must be something deep seated holding our evolution back.
- Ardon 2y ago
  Interesting framing, I've seen a similar 'If it's a meal, then where's the meat?' attitude from my own family, I've had some thoughts on where it came from, but I think part of it was escaping poverty in my grandparent's generation, and seeing 'success' as being able to afford meat in the first place. Meat was then a part of every meal, because doing otherwise would be socially... embarrassing? Not necessarily in a conscious way, but in a way it would be like giving you kids gruel. (Not that I have a problem with savoury oatmeal now :P) Then my parents grew up in that environment, and it was just part of the landscape of life. Meals have a meat ingredient. Or meat is the meal. There's a similar resistance to breakfasts that aren't egg-based. (honorable mention oatmeal again for breaking through) Or a similar resistance to eggs as the protein source for dinners, notice it just doesn't happen in north american cooking very much. Happens in other cuisines all the time though. I don't think it needs to be some deep seated gene-based flaw (at risk of putting words in your mouth) it only needs to be 'normal', and there's massive resistance to changing what's 'normal' when diverging from 'normal' isn't immediately more emotionally or physically comfortable than staying. Sometimes even then, if it makes you an outlier in the social landscape.
  - waffletower 2y ago
    I think the prevalence of the "soyboy" epithet is also evidence though. And hunting is a deep seated cultural value -- it is a rite of passage for many in American culture and is an important component of American masculine identity.
    - Ardon 2y ago
      Definitely not ruling it out, it's not 0% for sure. Though as a Canadian I don't think we got it as bad here, so I wouldn't say I really have any idea how big a factor it is. Especially in the USA.
- hilux 2y ago
  It's extremely difficult to eat low-carb without eating animal protein. Many of us don't eat low-carb because of some internet fad - we do it because we can see the data from our CGM.
- npongratz 2y ago
  > As many people speak of this difficulty to evolve and change their diet, I have come to theorize that people have a deep seated cultural need for sacrifice -- something must die for their meal to be legitimate. Of course something must die, but it's not because of culture. Even the most devout vegan would surely concede that the plants they eat must die in order to render sustenance from them. The reality we live in, even if we don't like it, is the simple fact that something must die for us to continue living.
  - datadrivenangel 2y ago
    Life feeds on life feeds on life
    - npongratz 2y ago
      Some might even chant, "This is necessary," over and over.
      - jajko 2y ago
        Since we can't do photosynthesis or break down some rather toxic molecules like our more primitive siblings, we must eat organic matter that once was alive. No need to delve too much in some militant vegan fantasies and rationalizations. Plant vs animal makes little difference from rational point of view, both feel pain and we have no clue telling which one more, not that it matters in this topic. Health wise plants are better, but ideal is as always some middle ground. Biohack our guts and we can go on whole lives without harming much, jainists would probably be interested.
        aziaziazi 2y ago
        > both feel pain and we have no clue telling which one more I never understood that dumb argument. After so much evolution lead us to being an empathic species, of course we have clue of others pain. Tear off some leaves of a tree in a public space Tear off some pets legs in a public space Observe people around you reaction. They’ll have a clue.
j_timberlake 2y ago
Yes, the weird truth is that donating a small percentage of your salary to a charity like this is a lot easier than trying to be vegetarian/vegan while still being about as effective. That site says ~$25 per month, which is not a lot for engineer salaries. Or $50/month if you want to make up for your past choices too. FWIW I've donated a lot to The Humane League and Giving What We Can's Animal Welfare Fund.

waffletower 2y ago

I love meat yet stopped eating all mammalian and fowl protein more than 30 years ago. I compromised with fish, but have gone long stretches without. Yet somehow protein is still very primary in my diet. As many people speak of this difficulty to evolve and change their diet, I have come to theorize that people have a deep seated cultural need for sacrifice -- something must die for their meal to be legitimate. The OP/OA explores the history of this idea. With all of the well developed plant protein options, some imitative of meats and others unique and viable, and the obvious looming problem of scaling livestock production with population growth and climate change, there must be something deep seated holding our evolution back.

Ardon 2y ago
Interesting framing, I've seen a similar 'If it's a meal, then where's the meat?' attitude from my own family, I've had some thoughts on where it came from, but I think part of it was escaping poverty in my grandparent's generation, and seeing 'success' as being able to afford meat in the first place. Meat was then a part of every meal, because doing otherwise would be socially... embarrassing? Not necessarily in a conscious way, but in a way it would be like giving you kids gruel. (Not that I have a problem with savoury oatmeal now :P) Then my parents grew up in that environment, and it was just part of the landscape of life. Meals have a meat ingredient. Or meat is the meal. There's a similar resistance to breakfasts that aren't egg-based. (honorable mention oatmeal again for breaking through) Or a similar resistance to eggs as the protein source for dinners, notice it just doesn't happen in north american cooking very much. Happens in other cuisines all the time though. I don't think it needs to be some deep seated gene-based flaw (at risk of putting words in your mouth) it only needs to be 'normal', and there's massive resistance to changing what's 'normal' when diverging from 'normal' isn't immediately more emotionally or physically comfortable than staying. Sometimes even then, if it makes you an outlier in the social landscape.
- waffletower 2y ago
  I think the prevalence of the "soyboy" epithet is also evidence though. And hunting is a deep seated cultural value -- it is a rite of passage for many in American culture and is an important component of American masculine identity.
  - Ardon 2y ago
    Definitely not ruling it out, it's not 0% for sure. Though as a Canadian I don't think we got it as bad here, so I wouldn't say I really have any idea how big a factor it is. Especially in the USA.
hilux 2y ago
It's extremely difficult to eat low-carb without eating animal protein. Many of us don't eat low-carb because of some internet fad - we do it because we can see the data from our CGM.
npongratz 2y ago
> As many people speak of this difficulty to evolve and change their diet, I have come to theorize that people have a deep seated cultural need for sacrifice -- something must die for their meal to be legitimate. Of course something must die, but it's not because of culture. Even the most devout vegan would surely concede that the plants they eat must die in order to render sustenance from them. The reality we live in, even if we don't like it, is the simple fact that something must die for us to continue living.
- datadrivenangel 2y ago
  Life feeds on life feeds on life
  - npongratz 2y ago
    Some might even chant, "This is necessary," over and over.
    - jajko 2y ago
      Since we can't do photosynthesis or break down some rather toxic molecules like our more primitive siblings, we must eat organic matter that once was alive. No need to delve too much in some militant vegan fantasies and rationalizations. Plant vs animal makes little difference from rational point of view, both feel pain and we have no clue telling which one more, not that it matters in this topic. Health wise plants are better, but ideal is as always some middle ground. Biohack our guts and we can go on whole lives without harming much, jainists would probably be interested.
      - aziaziazi 2y ago
        > both feel pain and we have no clue telling which one more I never understood that dumb argument. After so much evolution lead us to being an empathic species, of course we have clue of others pain. Tear off some leaves of a tree in a public space Tear off some pets legs in a public space Observe people around you reaction. They’ll have a clue.

j_timberlake 2y ago

Yes, the weird truth is that donating a small percentage of your salary to a charity like this is a lot easier than trying to be vegetarian/vegan while still being about as effective. That site says ~$25 per month, which is not a lot for engineer salaries. Or $50/month if you want to make up for your past choices too. FWIW I've donated a lot to The Humane League and Giving What We Can's Animal Welfare Fund.