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> Somehow the prices are still high enough that it's cheaper to buy a cheap used car and drive it instead. City streets and roads are paid for through property

> Somehow the prices are still high enough that it's cheaper to buy a cheap used car and drive it instead. City streets and roads are paid for through property taxes, so they are subsidized 100%.

Tade0 2y ago
You could say the same about rail infrastructure, but you cannot use private vehicles there (legally).
- bombcar 2y ago
  You actually can, but the hassle is expensive. You have to coordinate it with the railroad and the controller and you have to provide a locomotive and an engineer and on and on and on, but you can do it.
  - toast0 2y ago
    For heavy rail, yes. For light rail, that is more likely to have been built with local funds, is this actually a thing --- I'm sure if you work with the film commission, but I would be surprised if any light rail systems have a plan for private vehicles. Amtrak will pull your private rail car in the right conditions, too https://www.amtrak.com/privately-owned-rail-cars https://www.amtrak.com/privately-owned-rail-cars
    - Tade0 2y ago
      Over here we only have rogue motor trolley riders like these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4MI08HWro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4MI08HWro At the time of making the video this line had been closed for over 20 years, which is why it's so overgrown and why nobody bothered to disturb the riders.
    - bombcar 2y ago
      All light rails either operate like heavy rail (controlled from a central control area, receive clearances and obey rail signals) or they are just busses on tracks and operate by the rules of the road. Some are both. The second are easy, and you just need permission in general. The first you need communication with the central office. This is all done for maintenance vehicles for the tracks, which are often contractors.
colechristensen 2y ago
Gas taxes and toll revenue account for about 1/3 of road infrastructure spend these days. This is significantly less than years past as the fixed gas tax hasn't kept up with inflation or adjusted upwards enough to match efficiency gains.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  I was careful to say "city road & street" because those aren't generally subsidized by gas taxes, usually only inter-city roads and highways are.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    The street in front of a house is often installed by the developer of the neighborhood, maintenance provided by the city or county. But bigger roads in and out of town often have federal and state co-payments when built, depending on what and where they are. Bridge replacements, for example, often involve federal funds.
  - colechristensen 2y ago
    And still, you're incorrect. My state gathers money for a highway fund from gas taxes, vehicle registrations, vehicle sales taxes, etc. They have a program called "Municipal State Aid Street" where they reallocate some highway funds for city and rural streets. There's even a map. [1] I'm quite sure that everywhere has some similar program. There's this public transit chauvinist myth that roads are, "100% subsidized" as you say, and it's wrong. Stop making things up or just accepting vague collective wisdom. Roads are paid for in significant portions by road users. Not 100% because that would be an undue burden on the poor. Trains, despite being crazy expensive and heavily subsidized, are more expensive to use than owning a car for a lot of people or they are enormous money sinks that are paid by non-users. They can be incredibly useful and a worthwhile investment, but I've definitely run the numbers in the past and found the train to be more expensive and much more unpleasant than driving (for me it was a Caltrain+BART commute). 1. https://mndot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=34f8913831b94d3c94b675298e6fa18d https://mndot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?i...
timewizard 2y ago
Roads allow goods and services to be imported and exported from an area. The subsidy brings public benefit.
- eigenspace 2y ago
  So do rail lines?

> Somehow the prices are still high enough that it's cheaper to buy a cheap used car and drive it instead. City streets and roads are paid for through property taxes, so they are subsidized 100%.

Tade0 2y ago

You could say the same about rail infrastructure, but you cannot use private vehicles there (legally).

bombcar 2y ago
You actually can, but the hassle is expensive. You have to coordinate it with the railroad and the controller and you have to provide a locomotive and an engineer and on and on and on, but you can do it.
- toast0 2y ago
  For heavy rail, yes. For light rail, that is more likely to have been built with local funds, is this actually a thing --- I'm sure if you work with the film commission, but I would be surprised if any light rail systems have a plan for private vehicles. Amtrak will pull your private rail car in the right conditions, too https://www.amtrak.com/privately-owned-rail-cars https://www.amtrak.com/privately-owned-rail-cars
  - Tade0 2y ago
    Over here we only have rogue motor trolley riders like these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4MI08HWro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4MI08HWro At the time of making the video this line had been closed for over 20 years, which is why it's so overgrown and why nobody bothered to disturb the riders.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    All light rails either operate like heavy rail (controlled from a central control area, receive clearances and obey rail signals) or they are just busses on tracks and operate by the rules of the road. Some are both. The second are easy, and you just need permission in general. The first you need communication with the central office. This is all done for maintenance vehicles for the tracks, which are often contractors.

colechristensen 2y ago

Gas taxes and toll revenue account for about 1/3 of road infrastructure spend these days. This is significantly less than years past as the fixed gas tax hasn't kept up with inflation or adjusted upwards enough to match efficiency gains.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
I was careful to say "city road & street" because those aren't generally subsidized by gas taxes, usually only inter-city roads and highways are.
- bombcar 2y ago
  The street in front of a house is often installed by the developer of the neighborhood, maintenance provided by the city or county. But bigger roads in and out of town often have federal and state co-payments when built, depending on what and where they are. Bridge replacements, for example, often involve federal funds.
- colechristensen 2y ago
  And still, you're incorrect. My state gathers money for a highway fund from gas taxes, vehicle registrations, vehicle sales taxes, etc. They have a program called "Municipal State Aid Street" where they reallocate some highway funds for city and rural streets. There's even a map. [1] I'm quite sure that everywhere has some similar program. There's this public transit chauvinist myth that roads are, "100% subsidized" as you say, and it's wrong. Stop making things up or just accepting vague collective wisdom. Roads are paid for in significant portions by road users. Not 100% because that would be an undue burden on the poor. Trains, despite being crazy expensive and heavily subsidized, are more expensive to use than owning a car for a lot of people or they are enormous money sinks that are paid by non-users. They can be incredibly useful and a worthwhile investment, but I've definitely run the numbers in the past and found the train to be more expensive and much more unpleasant than driving (for me it was a Caltrain+BART commute). 1. https://mndot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=34f8913831b94d3c94b675298e6fa18d https://mndot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?i...

timewizard 2y ago

Roads allow goods and services to be imported and exported from an area. The subsidy brings public benefit.

eigenspace 2y ago
So do rail lines?