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Well done for all the anti-israel-arming people. I hope they're happy with the outcome they wanted.

by ta1243 2y ago

lenerdenator 2y ago
To be fair, they're okay with what they got so long as they're not the ones getting it. Hamas is a hardline theocratic political party based on a very conservative interpretation of a religion. That means they're anti-free speech/press/religion/assembly, anti-LGBTQ rights, anti-free enterprise, anti-secular jurisprudence, and anti-representative government. Neither of the Palestinian Territories have had meaningful elections in over a decade. They're utterly unwilling to discuss any sort of deviation from their foreign policy agenda in good faith. And yet, that's who many people on the political left-of-center see as the "freedom fighters" of the Israel-Hamas conflict. Is Israel blameless? Absolutely not. They've committed numerous war crimes and atrocities since October 7th. On the other hand, they have shown with Jordan and Egypt that if their neighbors agree to leave them alone, they'll do the same in turn. Fatah isn't that much better. Honestly it's a different flavor of the same kind of authoritarianism that many on the right in the US dream of. And with Trump, they're much closer to implementing this, albeit with a different religion. If the idea behind the 2024 election in the US was to prevent more people from coming under authoritarian rule on a global scale, the left in the US failed miserably. And I say that as someone on the political left.
- ta1243 2y ago
  I don't know. I do know when I've worked in Gaza I've had to deal with Hamas because they are the defacto civil service. It's the same story we're seeing in the west though, from Hungary to America to Turkey to the UK. Strongman comes along and correctly says "your life sucks", then says "it sucks because of this group of people" Run with that message for generations, throw in members of "this group of people" actually killing your friends and family, and it's easy to see how that message works.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    > Run with that message for generations, throw in members of "this group of people" actually killing your friends and family, and it's easy to see how that message works. Oh, absolutely. But the way to solve that is to realize that it was authoritarianism that started the problem. If the Arab states had been willing to talk about the concept of a Jewish state in the Middle East immediately after WWII, this probably doesn't happen. Instead a bunch of authoritarian rulers (most of them monarchs) decided to send troops to try to snuff out the founding of the new state. "I was put here by God; what I say goes" was their entire experience, and they tried applying it to the geopolitical disagreement in their region. A bunch of countries who more-or-less sat out WWII were up against the survivors of industrialized state-backed efforts to wipe out their people during the bloodiest war in human history. As we know, the former lost, and with it, any real chance of establishing a meaningful state for the Palestinian people on their terms. There's two ways to handle a loss: you can accept it on reasonable terms, or you can keep digging a hole. Egypt and Jordan eventually came around to reasonable terms. So far, those terms have held over multiple governments and decades on both sides. If the continued method taken by Hamas (and by extension, Iran) is going to be that of violence, particularly against a state they have to know, deep down, that they can't beat, then there's not too much else to be done other than keep the region from falling further into chaos. That, whether it is right or wrong in the minds of American voters, means blunting the impact of enemy action against Israel. It's one of the bloodiest examples of realpolitik.
- bloopernova 2y ago
  People weren't supporting hamas, they were condemning the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. That message was picked up by the russians etc and turned into a wedge issue on social media.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    > People weren't supporting hamas, they were condemning the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. At least within my little bubble, I saw a lot more concern about that than the fact that Hamas had basically committed a massive war crime on October 7th. The only people consistently talking about the hostages that I saw were my Jewish friends. Otherwise, it was mainly "Free Palestine". It's worth remembering that they also mainly targeted civilians, and that basically no nation-state today would do too much different from what Israel has been doing. If you were to kill, rape, and kidnap the proportional equivalent of any country's civilian population, you are likely to see their military attack you, and not stop until you at the very least returned the hostages.
    - mandmandam 2y ago
      > they also mainly targeted civilians How many Palestinians, mostly civilians, were held hostage in Israeli prisons on October 6th? (Hint: over 5,000). > If you were to kill, rape, Are you referencing long debunked fabricated accounts [0]? Or do you have any actual evidence of rape? > and kidnap the proportional equivalent of any country's civilian population Again - over 5,000 Palestinians were being held hostage by Israel on October 6th, including 170 children [1]. That's a huge proportion of the population. That's what October 7th was about. That's why they did it - to free kidnapped Palestinians. So, if you were to apply your own logic equally, you would then have to justify what Hamas did on October 7th. You can compare any statistic you like - kidnappings, murders, torture, rape. Per capita, or absolute, Israel comes out worse every time. > you are likely to see their military attack you Most countries attack military targets. Not tens of thousands of children, or every hospital, or record numbers of journalists, and refugee camps. Because the numbers (real people) are unprecedented. Unprecedented. > and not stop until you at the very least returned the hostages. Hamas offered to return the hostages on October 9/10 in exchange for Israeli troops not entering Gaza [2]. Netanyahu has scuppered many deals since. You may live in a bubble, but you can leave it any time you choose. 0 - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-2-debunked-accounts-of-sexual-violence-on-oct-7-fueled-a-global-dispute-over-israel-hamas-war https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-2-debunked-accounts-o... 1 - https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241023-number-of-palestinians-in-israel-prisons-doubled-in-1-year-exceeding-10100-prisoners-group/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241023-number-of-palesti... 2 - https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-...
BLKNSLVR 2y ago
Another lazy $4 billion in arms to Israel two weeks ago...
mandmandam 2y ago
No, sorry, you don't get to declare moral superiority because people refused to vote for a candidate who promised to keep arming genocide. "The lesser genocide" is an incredibly weak campaign pitch, and that was proven. Everything Trump has done, from rearming Netanyahu, to allowing more bombing during a ceasefire, to making efforts for ethnic cleansing was initially proposed/endorsed by Biden; and Harris had promised to do the same. 77% of Democrat voters wanted an arms embargo. The vast majority of elected Dems keep voting to rearm. You can't blame voters for abandoning a party which point-blank refuses to even listen to them, never mind represent them.
- ta1243 2y ago
  I'm not declaring anything, I'm just observing outcomes.
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    "Well done" ... "I hope they're happy" ... In case you weren't aware, that language isn't coming across as super-observational and not smug.

Well done for all the anti-israel-arming people. I hope they're happy with the outcome they wanted.

by ta1243 2y ago

Well done for all the anti-israel-arming people. I hope they're happy with the outcome they wanted.

To be fair, they're okay with what they got so long as they're not the ones getting it. Hamas is a hardline theocratic political party based on a very conservative interpretation of a religion. That means they're anti-free speech/press/religion/assembly, anti-LGBTQ rights, anti-free enterprise, anti-secular jurisprudence, and anti-representative government. Neither of the Palestinian Territories have had meaningful elections in over a decade. They're utterly unwilling to discuss any sort of deviation from their foreign policy agenda in good faith. And yet, that's who many people on the political left-of-center see as the "freedom fighters" of the Israel-Hamas conflict. Is Israel blameless? Absolutely not. They've committed numerous war crimes and atrocities since October 7th. On the other hand, they have shown with Jordan and Egypt that if their neighbors agree to leave them alone, they'll do the same in turn. Fatah isn't that much better. Honestly it's a different flavor of the same kind of authoritarianism that many on the right in the US dream of. And with Trump, they're much closer to implementing this, albeit with a different religion. If the idea behind the 2024 election in the US was to prevent more people from coming under authoritarian rule on a global scale, the left in the US failed miserably. And I say that as someone on the political left.

ta1243 2y ago
I don't know. I do know when I've worked in Gaza I've had to deal with Hamas because they are the defacto civil service. It's the same story we're seeing in the west though, from Hungary to America to Turkey to the UK. Strongman comes along and correctly says "your life sucks", then says "it sucks because of this group of people" Run with that message for generations, throw in members of "this group of people" actually killing your friends and family, and it's easy to see how that message works.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  > Run with that message for generations, throw in members of "this group of people" actually killing your friends and family, and it's easy to see how that message works. Oh, absolutely. But the way to solve that is to realize that it was authoritarianism that started the problem. If the Arab states had been willing to talk about the concept of a Jewish state in the Middle East immediately after WWII, this probably doesn't happen. Instead a bunch of authoritarian rulers (most of them monarchs) decided to send troops to try to snuff out the founding of the new state. "I was put here by God; what I say goes" was their entire experience, and they tried applying it to the geopolitical disagreement in their region. A bunch of countries who more-or-less sat out WWII were up against the survivors of industrialized state-backed efforts to wipe out their people during the bloodiest war in human history. As we know, the former lost, and with it, any real chance of establishing a meaningful state for the Palestinian people on their terms. There's two ways to handle a loss: you can accept it on reasonable terms, or you can keep digging a hole. Egypt and Jordan eventually came around to reasonable terms. So far, those terms have held over multiple governments and decades on both sides. If the continued method taken by Hamas (and by extension, Iran) is going to be that of violence, particularly against a state they have to know, deep down, that they can't beat, then there's not too much else to be done other than keep the region from falling further into chaos. That, whether it is right or wrong in the minds of American voters, means blunting the impact of enemy action against Israel. It's one of the bloodiest examples of realpolitik.
bloopernova 2y ago
People weren't supporting hamas, they were condemning the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. That message was picked up by the russians etc and turned into a wedge issue on social media.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  > People weren't supporting hamas, they were condemning the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. At least within my little bubble, I saw a lot more concern about that than the fact that Hamas had basically committed a massive war crime on October 7th. The only people consistently talking about the hostages that I saw were my Jewish friends. Otherwise, it was mainly "Free Palestine". It's worth remembering that they also mainly targeted civilians, and that basically no nation-state today would do too much different from what Israel has been doing. If you were to kill, rape, and kidnap the proportional equivalent of any country's civilian population, you are likely to see their military attack you, and not stop until you at the very least returned the hostages.
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    > they also mainly targeted civilians How many Palestinians, mostly civilians, were held hostage in Israeli prisons on October 6th? (Hint: over 5,000). > If you were to kill, rape, Are you referencing long debunked fabricated accounts [0]? Or do you have any actual evidence of rape? > and kidnap the proportional equivalent of any country's civilian population Again - over 5,000 Palestinians were being held hostage by Israel on October 6th, including 170 children [1]. That's a huge proportion of the population. That's what October 7th was about. That's why they did it - to free kidnapped Palestinians. So, if you were to apply your own logic equally, you would then have to justify what Hamas did on October 7th. You can compare any statistic you like - kidnappings, murders, torture, rape. Per capita, or absolute, Israel comes out worse every time. > you are likely to see their military attack you Most countries attack military targets. Not tens of thousands of children, or every hospital, or record numbers of journalists, and refugee camps. Because the numbers (real people) are unprecedented. Unprecedented. > and not stop until you at the very least returned the hostages. Hamas offered to return the hostages on October 9/10 in exchange for Israeli troops not entering Gaza [2]. Netanyahu has scuppered many deals since. You may live in a bubble, but you can leave it any time you choose. 0 - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-2-debunked-accounts-of-sexual-violence-on-oct-7-fueled-a-global-dispute-over-israel-hamas-war https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-2-debunked-accounts-o... 1 - https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241023-number-of-palestinians-in-israel-prisons-doubled-in-1-year-exceeding-10100-prisoners-group/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241023-number-of-palesti... 2 - https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-...

BLKNSLVR 2y ago

Another lazy $4 billion in arms to Israel two weeks ago...

mandmandam 2y ago

No, sorry, you don't get to declare moral superiority because people refused to vote for a candidate who promised to keep arming genocide. "The lesser genocide" is an incredibly weak campaign pitch, and that was proven. Everything Trump has done, from rearming Netanyahu, to allowing more bombing during a ceasefire, to making efforts for ethnic cleansing was initially proposed/endorsed by Biden; and Harris had promised to do the same. 77% of Democrat voters wanted an arms embargo. The vast majority of elected Dems keep voting to rearm. You can't blame voters for abandoning a party which point-blank refuses to even listen to them, never mind represent them.

ta1243 2y ago
I'm not declaring anything, I'm just observing outcomes.
- mandmandam 2y ago
  "Well done" ... "I hope they're happy" ... In case you weren't aware, that language isn't coming across as super-observational and not smug.