5 ms·
I think reading is an essential skill, but we also need to get reading out of the pedestal. Because a lot of the time these arguments come across as some sort o
by sergioisidoro 2y ago
I think reading is an essential skill, but we also need to get reading out of the pedestal. Because a lot of the time these arguments come across as some sort of literary elitism. Like if you're not ingesting information through reading, it doesn't count.
This month I spent many hours listening to lectures on youtube about geopolitics on the Asian continent from the naval war college. Sure I could have read it, but nevertheless I got curious about a topic, engaged in it, and "followed the rabbit holes"
I think there is a case to be made that we need to be more active in information seeking, rather than just being fed what the algorithm suggests you - on that topic Technology connections recently made a really good exposition of that issue -- https://youtu.be/QEJpZjg8GuA https://youtu.be/QEJpZjg8GuA -- But it should not be about the method of ingesting information, but the quality and the intent of it.
- thinkingtoilet 2y agoI always love this conversation: Snob: "Listening to an audio book doesn't count as reading the book!" Everyone else in the world: "k"
- nottorp 2y agoI could argue that it doesn't because you use different neural path ways to absorb the book :)
- bayindirh 2y agoReading material (backlight vs. reflective screen) differs in my experience. Also typing and writing are very different neurologically, but people don't want to acknowledge that, AFAICS.
- nottorp 2y agoSpeaking of neural pathways, my pet theory is that you're a lot more likely to be "engaged" by an "influencer" if you watch them talk than if you just read the same speech. Mostly because a lot more of your brain is involved in just handling the input so a lot less is available to notice the bullshit.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bayindirh 2y agoActually, I'm somewhere in between about Audio books. First of all, for some books, that's great. Esp, if read by a good voice actor. It can convert a book to radio theater, that's magic. However, if you're listening while you're driving, or being distracted, you lose the some parts of the picture. Lastly, not all books are good audio books. Some of them need stopping, reflecting, and some re-reading sometimes. So, horses for courses I may say.
- mysterydip 2y agoPersonally, even if I lose something listening to an audiobook while driving, I gain more than if I did something else. It's otherwise lost time. I can always re-listen and gain something I missed the first time.
- bayindirh 2y agoThat's one perspective. On the other hand, I find many missing pieces what I'm looking for while driving in silence. When I reach my destination, either have answers or new questions to jot down. I think silence / noise is another form of breathing. After filling your brains' queues, you need to allow it to process these queues in its own terms. When queues are processed, there is loot to collect at the other end of the bar.
- nicbou 2y agoI'm paying more attention to an audiobook in my car than at a book in a busy place.
- whymememe 2y agoTo be pedantic, it’s definitionally not reading. You listened to the book, you didn’t read it. There’s just an odd legitimacy associated specifically with reading - that people want to access, and so makes other people weirdly snobbish/defensive of it.
- jihadjihad 2y agoThe snob's take is bad, but there is a point of agreement I have with one aspect of audiobooks: it's impossible to remember details about things that fall outside your native language, if you haven't already studied them. For example, I listened to a nonfiction audiobook about Xi Jinping. I could tell you the broad strokes of the people in his orbit from the late 1970s on, but I have no idea how to spell or even Google them effectively, because I never read them--I only heard them. The same goes for foreign concepts/places/etc., for me at least there is no substitute for reading when it comes to retention and recall of material.
- bee_rider 2y agoI cannot say what works for other people. For me, unless I’m reading with my eyeballs, taking notes, and working examples, I’m not really convinced I’m learning anything difficult.
- DontchaKnowit 2y agodisagree. You just have to actively listen, and cannot let your mind wander. you can also read and have no idea what you just read if you let your mind wander. Currently learning spanish via a podcast and its very effective, I just have to pause and rewind constantly to make sure I fully understand whats going on
- bee_rider 2y agoI was pretty clear that I was just describing what works for me, right? So, as the authority on the topic, I declare you incorrect. It is fine if you think I’m not representative or usual, but I’m telling you, I’ve tried listening very hard in many different contexts, it just doesn’t work.
- noboostforyou 2y agoA long time ago I remember taking tests in school that was explicitly about trying to determine how you best learned - audio/visual/hands-on etc So you're definitely correct - everyone learns best a different way.
- layer8 2y agoI don’t think language-learning is a good example, because of course hearing the language is a crucial part there. And on the other hand, good luck learning to read/write Chinese (or even Spanish) with just podcasts.
- mark_l_watson 2y agoI tend to rewind audio books and re listen to the last minute or two or three. Ten years ago I read James Joyce’s Ulysses as a book. I enjoyed it, but when I listened to it as an audio book a year later, the excellent actors/voice artists really brought it to life for me. I often self describe myself as a ‘gentleman scientist’ because for many years I have done my own research, sometimes in areas where I had no interest in practical application. I also believe that the act of writing is crucial to thinking (I have written 20+ books, 2500+ blog articles). I think too many people put too much emphasis on “work” vs. just living: averaging only ‘working’ about 60% of my adult life has made room for other activitites.
- dustincoates 2y agoI saw elsewhere that someone said it was ablist to say that an audiobook doesn't count as a book, which I could only think that we put too much importance on books. Don't take this as an anti-intellectual screed. Far from it--I read a lot. But I think you can also learn from magazines, newspapers, plays, orations, etc. It leads to this weird situation where people are optimizing not for what they're learning but for the count. How many books have you read this year? Does an audiobook count? Like... it doesn't really matter.
- mcmoor 2y agoYeah if someone force me with gun to say it, I'd say even reading braille doesn't count as reading either. But it doesn't matter anyway since it's just different modes of absorbing information.
- dkarl 2y agoI used to agree with you, but then I found out how most people get through audiobooks and TV shows. They just miss stuff! They zone out for a few seconds or a few minutes. They take phone calls and move the laundry into the dryer without pausing and rewinding. It's crazy! Watching a fast-moving TV show with someone like that is bizarre because they'll happily sit through a complex conversation between characters even though they missed all the context that makes the conversation make sense. Granted you can miss a lot when you're reading, too, since a lot of the context for any work is external to the work itself, but with a book, you have to actively choose to keep going when you're confused, rather than passively letting it flow past you. Nothing privileges the choice to turn to the next page rather than returning to the previous page. I think the experience of reading books at least is good training for how to read an audiobook or listen to a lecture. You should be quick to pause and rewind if you suspect you missed something.
- JKCalhoun 2y ago"What do you care what other people think?"
- rottc0dd 2y agoThis is a personal take. I agree if you are actively participating and grappling with the material in your mind. One reason I like reading is that, if I don't understand I cannot move on to next step. So, it forces me to actively participate, argue and understand the text. In audio and visual medium, it is somewhat easier to trick myself into following the flow without actually understanding. I heard, that is why Feynman lectures are bad for some people. It is very easy to understand, but doing physics require active problem solving. Consuming audio is the most human way and if it works for you, it works for you.
- Der_Einzige 2y agoFeynman lectures pretend that physics doesn’t require a ton of hard, painful, and not all that rewarding math to get to any of the good stuff.
- codelieb 2y agoAnyone who could write this has apparently no familiarity with The Feynman Lectures on Physics, which is chock full of quite difficult mathematics.
- thfuran 2y ago>One reason I like reading is that, if I don't understand I cannot move on to next step Yes, you can. You can even skim—or entirely skip—whole sections.
- spoiler 2y agoBut with reading it's more of an active or deliberate choice. With listening or watching it "just happens" naturally as the medium progresses. I'm also a slow learner (and reader) so I think reading also suits me better because I allows me to control the pace better.
- thfuran 2y agoYou've never gotten distracted while reading and then found that you've scanned over a bunch of text while thinking about something else?
- voidhorse 2y agoI don't think the accusation of elitism is valid here. Postulating that a particular kind of activity might be better suited to a particular kind of goal isn't elitism. Is it "elitist" to claim that one sorting algorithm is faster than another? People are so individualistic and sensitive these days that they take any proposed alternatives that don't align with their own habits and modes of consumption as a direct affront against them. I don't think this article is claiming any sort of superiority—it's lamenting a previous modality of information exchange and reflection that seems to be on the decline. Sure, you might argue that claiming civilization is in crisis is a form of elitism, but I interpret it more like an elaboration of a perceived problem and not a value judgement about the superiority of some alternatives. I don't like riding in cars. I prefer to walk. Plenty of people would be right to tell me taking a car is often more efficient, I don't think of them as "car elitists".
- robwwilliams 2y agoThis discussion on the immanent collapse of civilization never gets old. Socrates complained that this new invention of writing was ruining philosophy and memory. In his view philosophy was verbal jousting and conversation while walking. The primary source is from Socrates lips (unavaiable), but you can read Plato’s Phaedrus, ask Wikipedia, or chat with Claude 3.7 Sonnet.
- Jensson 2y agoCivilizations did collapse many times, Egyptians forgot how to make their large stone monuments etc. It is important to try to avoid that, not all new things are progress, some does lead to collapses.
- mangodrunk 2y agoWell said. I should stop using social media, the level of discourse is low and anti-intellectualism is rampant. I do think the world would benefit from more amateur researchers.
- mvieira38 2y agoListening to a lecture is a far more passive form of learning than reading a book. Being an avid reader is seen as special because it requires more time and effort to do: you just can't read while doing the dishes or morning cardio or running unit tests. Also, by reading challenging books you learn the valuable skills of backtracking and skimming, which may be applied to better and more quickly understand difficult texts. The lecture equivalent is taking notes and asking questions, but you really can't do that with online recorded stuff.
- sergioisidoro 2y agoOk I'm going to invert that thought, and say: if books are so intelectually more efficient, why do we even have universities? Why do we have lectures, and why doesn't everyone just read? Spoken word is one of the most primitive and human ways of communicating information. Written word appeared as a replacement to spoken word, because there was no other capable medium of information. Now we have mediums capable of doing so, why not use them instead. Also you're somehow implying that because I'm doing the dishes I'm paying less attention? I think that's a really big assumption, and will probably vary a lot from person to person.
- mvieira38 2y agoWe have universities so students can have help with their work and their expert teachers about any issues they had with the study material. But since printing has become so efficient, a few hundred years ago, universities have gradually tapered off the long lecture times and have been given more and more reading assignments and homework. In fact, in classes that don't take attendance, many students do "just read", and when the classes do take attendance someone will usually beg the teacher to post the slides somewhere so they can read them... And do I even need to talk about how much reading is involved in professional academics?
- RheingoldRiver 2y ago> you just can't read while doing the dishes or morning cardio or running unit tests this is literally what audiobooks are for. And I concentrate significantly better on audio if I'm multitasking with a mindless activity
- jampekka 2y agoThe reading pedestal also often ignores that reading, and even writing, is not enough. In the posted piece the steps of "research" are, apart from haphazardly watching birds and architecture, all reading or writing. I see problems arising from this in academia quite commonly. The discussions based only on reading and writing (and discussions) tend to get detached from reality, often to the point of inability to point out any real world examples where the discussion actually applies to. Also many who lament lack of reading can be quite proudly "not technical persons", "not mathematical thinkers" or "not good with my hands", with kind of implication that these are not of much significance for intellectual development.
- awongh 2y agoIt feels like a healthy variety of media types and engagement types is the best way to engage with a subject. Internet, audio/podcasts, video, and also active writing on the topic. Balance them all out depending on your preferences. btw, the common idea that people have “learning styles” seems to have been debunked, but I do feel that there are so many ways to approach a topic that it’s helpful to understand them through different media
- Eridrus 2y agoI do think people writ large do not read enough, there has been a lot of knowledge already written down and many engineers and researchers I work with would rather do than read. And the most detailed information is written, not in other forms. But I love video/audio too, it is often presented in a much more accessible form than papers. But the people who put reading on a pedestal also need to remember that reading is still subservient to doing, because that is where theory meets reality and reality is not usually kind to theory.
- svara 2y agoYou're not wrong, but anti elitism is a much greater problem than potentially being perceived as elitist. When I say you should read, I'm not really saying that's the only valid way to take in information. I'm saying that to a first approximation, if you do read, you are probably practicing healthy habits around taking in information. And if you don't, it's likely you're not. It's a slightly blunt statement, but the more nuanced 'try to engage with information deeply, think through multi-step reasoning cascades on your own, integrate different sources of information and transfer them to new domains' really doesn't land in the same way.
- BeetleB 2y agoIf there are alternative media that covers the material, by all means utilize them! The reality is when you get deep enough in a topic, virtually all the content is available solely in text form. So I tell people that while it's fine to consume content in other formats, you have to make sure you are quite capable when it comes to reading.
- samspot 2y agoThe reason reading was put on a pedestal is to ensure young learners develop the skill of reading. Once you have the essential reading skills, reading loses it's special position. But it can be hard for adults to break the mold of what they were taught as children.
- mclau156 2y agoReading Wikipedia can easily become research