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China has everything needed for cheap and efficient manufacturing. The design skills, the infrastructure, the cheap labour, the network of factories, etc. The

China has everything needed for cheap and efficient manufacturing. The design skills, the infrastructure, the cheap labour, the network of factories, etc. The US does not. The only reason the US might win at car manufacturing will be if there are sufficient tariffs or other trade barriers. In a free market, China will win.

soco 2y ago
How will US win with trade barriers? With them it can only secure the US market, and even this only provided the entire production chain is located in the US. Because you can forget about exporting goods weighted by trade tariffs - as you can see nobody accepts being tariffed without retaliating. So it can win, if you redefine the word "win".
- gedy 2y ago
  > as you can see nobody accepts being tariffed without retaliating I'm not defending our tariff strategy, but afaik this is actually the point being made that the US imports with low/no tariffs while US exports are tariffed in many countries.
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    I'd assume that's bullshit for "many countries" and here's a comment from the EU calling it specifically bullshit in regards to them: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_25_541 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_... > Doesn't the US have a point about an asymmetry in tariffs, such as the EU's 10% tariff on cars compared to the US's 2.5% tariff? > Tariff structures vary between economies, with some EU tariffs higher than those of the US and many others lower. Both the EU and the US have equally low tariffs overall. > While the EU applies a 10% Most Favored Nation (MFN) tariff on cars, it's important to note that the US imposes a 25% tariff on pickup trucks—the largest segment of the US auto market, accounting for about one-third of all vehicle sales. In fact, the best-selling vehicle in the US is a pickup truck, the Ford F-150. > The EU remains open to balanced negotiations that foster a level playing field for both sides.
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  Yeah, thinking about that. You better hope the people of the US feel comfortable dropping $50K with enough frequency for it to be sustainable.
infecto 2y ago
It's not even that the labor is as cheap as it used to be but it's generally a very able and willing workforce with a labor structure where there are no qualms with automating parts of the process. The auto manufacturing race has already been lost in my opinion. Nobody is doing it as well or at the same scale as China.
ecocentrik 2y ago
The US is not going to win at car manufacturing outside the US anymore and right now it's not even clear it will win inside the US or with our closest trading partners. Tariffs are not being wielded effectively to protect US car manufacturing in the US.
- daveguy 2y ago
  Agreed. Tarrifs and doge are clearly being wielded to diminish US standing in the world. See also: shutting down relatively inexpensive aid programs that feed hungry people all over the world. And shutting down pro-democracy broadcasting throughout the world. Our adversaries have never had a better opportunity to jump in as heroes. Or even just, not assholes. Destruction of soft power directly by the tool in charge. US influence around the world went poof in a matter of weeks. Xi and Putin couldn't have planned it better.
  - enaaem 2y ago
    A businessman like Trump sees money as goal in of itself. Statesmen like Xi and Putin see money as a means to an end.
- tim333 2y ago
  Tesla were doing pretty well at competing with the Chinese in China.
  - ecocentrik 2y ago
    They were competing and holding their own. I wouldn't say they were winning. The major advantage BYD had was as a battery manufacturer who had also vertically integrated into lithium mining. Tesla has tried to replicate their manufacturing and mining operations but is still lagging in the development of those facets of their business.
tinyhouse 2y ago
I don't know how if it's tariffs or something else, but the US has been preventing importing EVs from China for a long time. You cannot not notice all the Chinese EVs on the roads when traveling overseas. I always wondered why those cars don't make it to the US.
- bildung 2y ago
  It's tariffs. The US has a 100% tariff on Chinese EV already since 2024.
- spamizbad 2y ago
  The US auto industry is protected via tariffs. It would implode if those were lifted.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    To be fair, the US auto industry has been in various states of mid-implosion since the 80s, and has only barely had a few years here and there (mostly just ford really) of NOT imploding. Buying domestic has been a sucker's game in the US since at least Reagan. Occasionally a domestic vehicle might be cheap, but it hasn't been a "good deal" in my lifetime.
w0m 2y ago
TBF - China is anything but a free market.
- peppers-ghost 2y ago
  There's no such thing as a free market
lenerdenator 2y ago
In a completely free market, it's less clear. A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping, and they're doing it with government support.
- coldpie 2y ago
  > A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping I'd be interested to read more about this claim, if you have a link/source. Regardless, we desperately need to de-carbonize our transportation sector. If China is the only country willing to put the dollars in to actually do that, then they deserve to reap the benefits of the new energy economy they helped build. Economics of the cars themselves aside, any effort put in to minimizing the costs of climate change will pay for itself by the end of the century.
  - Marsymars 2y ago
    There are lots of sources around Chinese dumping of steel for the past decade. Hard to find a good authoritative summary though, because every country and domestic steel lobby is running their own response. But e.g. from the UK in 2017: https://business.leeds.ac.uk/research-ceric/dir-record/research-blog/702/fact-check-is-china-dumping-steel https://business.leeds.ac.uk/research-ceric/dir-record/resea...
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping, and they're doing it with government support. European and American car makers have also gotten enormous support from their governments, except in other forms, like for example VW not being bankrupted to hell by the German government during Diesel gate for example.
  - myrmidon 2y ago
    Do you think that the NOx-affair consequences for VW were too little? What would have been appropriate in your opinion? Every government can be expected to help local industry where reasonable, because that is in many ways what the constituents/electorate actually wants/needs.
yabatopia 2y ago
You forgot the total lack of enforcing even basic environmental regulations, the massive government subsidies (diect and indirect), Uyghur forced labor, etc. And China is anything but a free market. In a truly free market, most Chinese carmakers wouldn't even exist. They mostly exist because Western carmakers were forced to form China dominated joint-ventures, share technology and ownership in order to enter the Chinese market.
- Cerium 2y ago
  "forced"? Nothing but greed and a race to the bottom forced their hands.

soco 2y ago

How will US win with trade barriers? With them it can only secure the US market, and even this only provided the entire production chain is located in the US. Because you can forget about exporting goods weighted by trade tariffs - as you can see nobody accepts being tariffed without retaliating. So it can win, if you redefine the word "win".

gedy 2y ago
> as you can see nobody accepts being tariffed without retaliating I'm not defending our tariff strategy, but afaik this is actually the point being made that the US imports with low/no tariffs while US exports are tariffed in many countries.
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  I'd assume that's bullshit for "many countries" and here's a comment from the EU calling it specifically bullshit in regards to them: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_25_541 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_... > Doesn't the US have a point about an asymmetry in tariffs, such as the EU's 10% tariff on cars compared to the US's 2.5% tariff? > Tariff structures vary between economies, with some EU tariffs higher than those of the US and many others lower. Both the EU and the US have equally low tariffs overall. > While the EU applies a 10% Most Favored Nation (MFN) tariff on cars, it's important to note that the US imposes a 25% tariff on pickup trucks—the largest segment of the US auto market, accounting for about one-third of all vehicle sales. In fact, the best-selling vehicle in the US is a pickup truck, the Ford F-150. > The EU remains open to balanced negotiations that foster a level playing field for both sides.
JKCalhoun 2y ago
Yeah, thinking about that. You better hope the people of the US feel comfortable dropping $50K with enough frequency for it to be sustainable.

infecto 2y ago

It's not even that the labor is as cheap as it used to be but it's generally a very able and willing workforce with a labor structure where there are no qualms with automating parts of the process. The auto manufacturing race has already been lost in my opinion. Nobody is doing it as well or at the same scale as China.

ecocentrik 2y ago

The US is not going to win at car manufacturing outside the US anymore and right now it's not even clear it will win inside the US or with our closest trading partners. Tariffs are not being wielded effectively to protect US car manufacturing in the US.

daveguy 2y ago
Agreed. Tarrifs and doge are clearly being wielded to diminish US standing in the world. See also: shutting down relatively inexpensive aid programs that feed hungry people all over the world. And shutting down pro-democracy broadcasting throughout the world. Our adversaries have never had a better opportunity to jump in as heroes. Or even just, not assholes. Destruction of soft power directly by the tool in charge. US influence around the world went poof in a matter of weeks. Xi and Putin couldn't have planned it better.
- enaaem 2y ago
  A businessman like Trump sees money as goal in of itself. Statesmen like Xi and Putin see money as a means to an end.
tim333 2y ago
Tesla were doing pretty well at competing with the Chinese in China.
- ecocentrik 2y ago
  They were competing and holding their own. I wouldn't say they were winning. The major advantage BYD had was as a battery manufacturer who had also vertically integrated into lithium mining. Tesla has tried to replicate their manufacturing and mining operations but is still lagging in the development of those facets of their business.

tinyhouse 2y ago

I don't know how if it's tariffs or something else, but the US has been preventing importing EVs from China for a long time. You cannot not notice all the Chinese EVs on the roads when traveling overseas. I always wondered why those cars don't make it to the US.

bildung 2y ago
It's tariffs. The US has a 100% tariff on Chinese EV already since 2024.
spamizbad 2y ago
The US auto industry is protected via tariffs. It would implode if those were lifted.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  To be fair, the US auto industry has been in various states of mid-implosion since the 80s, and has only barely had a few years here and there (mostly just ford really) of NOT imploding. Buying domestic has been a sucker's game in the US since at least Reagan. Occasionally a domestic vehicle might be cheap, but it hasn't been a "good deal" in my lifetime.

w0m 2y ago

TBF - China is anything but a free market.

peppers-ghost 2y ago
There's no such thing as a free market

lenerdenator 2y ago

In a completely free market, it's less clear. A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping, and they're doing it with government support.

coldpie 2y ago
> A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping I'd be interested to read more about this claim, if you have a link/source. Regardless, we desperately need to de-carbonize our transportation sector. If China is the only country willing to put the dollars in to actually do that, then they deserve to reap the benefits of the new energy economy they helped build. Economics of the cars themselves aside, any effort put in to minimizing the costs of climate change will pay for itself by the end of the century.
- Marsymars 2y ago
  There are lots of sources around Chinese dumping of steel for the past decade. Hard to find a good authoritative summary though, because every country and domestic steel lobby is running their own response. But e.g. from the UK in 2017: https://business.leeds.ac.uk/research-ceric/dir-record/research-blog/702/fact-check-is-china-dumping-steel https://business.leeds.ac.uk/research-ceric/dir-record/resea...
FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping, and they're doing it with government support. European and American car makers have also gotten enormous support from their governments, except in other forms, like for example VW not being bankrupted to hell by the German government during Diesel gate for example.
- myrmidon 2y ago
  Do you think that the NOx-affair consequences for VW were too little? What would have been appropriate in your opinion? Every government can be expected to help local industry where reasonable, because that is in many ways what the constituents/electorate actually wants/needs.

yabatopia 2y ago

You forgot the total lack of enforcing even basic environmental regulations, the massive government subsidies (diect and indirect), Uyghur forced labor, etc. And China is anything but a free market. In a truly free market, most Chinese carmakers wouldn't even exist. They mostly exist because Western carmakers were forced to form China dominated joint-ventures, share technology and ownership in order to enter the Chinese market.

Cerium 2y ago
"forced"? Nothing but greed and a race to the bottom forced their hands.