4 ms·

For this use case you really care about reducing the lifetime total cost of ownership, which means making the bike as reliable, serviceable, and repairable as p

by kibwen 2y ago

For this use case you really care about reducing the lifetime total cost of ownership, which means making the bike as reliable, serviceable, and repairable as possible. I love e-bikes, but IME they have a long way to go to get to same level as normal bikes in this regard. It's good that the bikes in the article are locally-built, but I'd like to know whether or not they emphasize using standardized parts with high availability.

luma 2y ago
Do you deliver packages in a tropical climate? If the answer is no, maybe you have a different use case than the people in the article. Being able to make it through the day might carry more significance for these users than being able to tear the thing down without any electrical knowledge. HN in a nutshell - you see an article full of first-hand reports of the users and their use case and your immediate reaction is that you know better about what they want and need than they do.
- kibwen 2y ago
  I ride an e-bike 30 miles a day. It's my main mode of transportation, as I don't own a car. Right now it's in the shop for repairs; I understand well the time cost and wallet cost of regular maintenance and am actively considering building my own bike to find a better solution. Please don't pretend that you know me.
- numpad0 2y ago
  Hot and humid is the worst for any machines. Which tropical climate is. It's also lowkey why Toyota ended up being ~the most reliable brand of cars.
  - DanielHB 2y ago
    I can tell you for a fact that snow and salted streets is far, far worse for an e-bike (I assume cars/trucks too, but maybe not since the gears are more isolated from the street?). However these places are like that only for 2-4 months of the year. Compound that to e-bikes batteries usually (always?) don't have heating systems to keep them at >0 C, at least you can take them out of the bike when not in use though. Worse is there are some cities that have both, humid summers and salted streets in winter.
  - devilbunny 2y ago
    You're right about hot and humid, but Bogota (which is where the story is set) is not hot. Highest temperature ever recorded was 30 Celsius and usual highs all year are about 20 C. Average altitude is 2600 m/8600 ft. It is humid, but that doesn't seem to translate into especially heavy rain - total precip is less than 900 mm/yr, or somewhere between Minneapolis and Chicago.
- itishappy 2y ago
  I think you're entirely misunderstanding the comment you're replying to here. Of course having a usable bike is critical, but the comment was about reparability and cost of ownership in the long term. A repair shop won't be able to help you fix a bike if there's no parts available. This has nothing to do with the users electrical knowledge.
  - jjice 2y ago
    Agreed - maintainability directly contributes to whether or not something is "affordable" which is one of the center points of the article. Cheap and not repairable can quickly become expensive and wasteful.
JKCalhoun 2y ago
In my mind there's a "standardized", probably cargo, e-bike that has not yet been invented. A e-bike (or scooter) that is mass-produced and inexpensive like the Volkswagen Bug and popular enough to breed an ecosystem of aftermarket parts, mods, etc. Let the clones follow using the same parts, connectors and you could have a world-wide phenomena.
- davidzweig 2y ago
  I bought a sit-on electric Chinese cargo scooter from an importer in Bulgaria because I liked how it looked, and it's handy for going around town. They are everywhere in China. They are assembled by hundreds (probably thousands) of small factories. A big center is Wuxi. I visited a few factories there last year. The scooters cost about $350 USD in China. There seems to be a sort of loose standardization around components, that are also churned out by countless factories. Wheels/motors are generally 10" or 12" size. Brake disks have either a certain 3 or 4 bolt pattern. I'm sure the electrics likewise follow some patterns. I had the thought that it would be fun to 3d scan parts, measure and document some of these scooters, and make a database of suppliers. Then, who knows, start to make the frames and assemble in Bulgaria. But you really need to be spending time in China to do that, and it wasn't really the right time for me then. Another thing to note: branded scooters (niu etc.) are becoming more popular, better quality, extensive plastics, and you can probably order parts from the manufacturer.
conductr 2y ago
They article quotes $1400 for these bikes as initial investment. Add that to my personal assertation that anyone working on a bike should be handy enough to DIY for all things related to service/repair. Bikes are not hard to work on at all. If you agree with that, then you should be able to convert a standard bike to an e-bike with a couple hundred dollar kit that is readily available. Unless there's some kind of market capture here where they can't access the cheap parts I have access too via Alibaba/Amazon, this could easily be a DIY with a few simple tools and some research on YT. I've done this myself with no special electronic experience (however, I did service my own BMX bikes when I was a kid/teen).
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  The only issue with the cheap kits is that they seem to be much likelier to catch fire.
  - conductr 2y ago
    You can buy well built kits that are inexpensive. If you buy the cheapest available on Alibaba then maybe there's some risk of this
    - kjkjadksj 2y ago
      Do you have any recommendations for something weatherproof? Maybe something easy to convert back to regular bike? I would love for a little supplementary power to flatten the hills on the commute.

by kibwen 2y ago

luma 2y ago

Do you deliver packages in a tropical climate? If the answer is no, maybe you have a different use case than the people in the article. Being able to make it through the day might carry more significance for these users than being able to tear the thing down without any electrical knowledge. HN in a nutshell - you see an article full of first-hand reports of the users and their use case and your immediate reaction is that you know better about what they want and need than they do.

kibwen 2y ago
I ride an e-bike 30 miles a day. It's my main mode of transportation, as I don't own a car. Right now it's in the shop for repairs; I understand well the time cost and wallet cost of regular maintenance and am actively considering building my own bike to find a better solution. Please don't pretend that you know me.
numpad0 2y ago
Hot and humid is the worst for any machines. Which tropical climate is. It's also lowkey why Toyota ended up being ~the most reliable brand of cars.
- DanielHB 2y ago
  I can tell you for a fact that snow and salted streets is far, far worse for an e-bike (I assume cars/trucks too, but maybe not since the gears are more isolated from the street?). However these places are like that only for 2-4 months of the year. Compound that to e-bikes batteries usually (always?) don't have heating systems to keep them at >0 C, at least you can take them out of the bike when not in use though. Worse is there are some cities that have both, humid summers and salted streets in winter.
- devilbunny 2y ago
  You're right about hot and humid, but Bogota (which is where the story is set) is not hot. Highest temperature ever recorded was 30 Celsius and usual highs all year are about 20 C. Average altitude is 2600 m/8600 ft. It is humid, but that doesn't seem to translate into especially heavy rain - total precip is less than 900 mm/yr, or somewhere between Minneapolis and Chicago.
itishappy 2y ago
I think you're entirely misunderstanding the comment you're replying to here. Of course having a usable bike is critical, but the comment was about reparability and cost of ownership in the long term. A repair shop won't be able to help you fix a bike if there's no parts available. This has nothing to do with the users electrical knowledge.
- jjice 2y ago
  Agreed - maintainability directly contributes to whether or not something is "affordable" which is one of the center points of the article. Cheap and not repairable can quickly become expensive and wasteful.

JKCalhoun 2y ago

In my mind there's a "standardized", probably cargo, e-bike that has not yet been invented. A e-bike (or scooter) that is mass-produced and inexpensive like the Volkswagen Bug and popular enough to breed an ecosystem of aftermarket parts, mods, etc. Let the clones follow using the same parts, connectors and you could have a world-wide phenomena.

davidzweig 2y ago
I bought a sit-on electric Chinese cargo scooter from an importer in Bulgaria because I liked how it looked, and it's handy for going around town. They are everywhere in China. They are assembled by hundreds (probably thousands) of small factories. A big center is Wuxi. I visited a few factories there last year. The scooters cost about $350 USD in China. There seems to be a sort of loose standardization around components, that are also churned out by countless factories. Wheels/motors are generally 10" or 12" size. Brake disks have either a certain 3 or 4 bolt pattern. I'm sure the electrics likewise follow some patterns. I had the thought that it would be fun to 3d scan parts, measure and document some of these scooters, and make a database of suppliers. Then, who knows, start to make the frames and assemble in Bulgaria. But you really need to be spending time in China to do that, and it wasn't really the right time for me then. Another thing to note: branded scooters (niu etc.) are becoming more popular, better quality, extensive plastics, and you can probably order parts from the manufacturer.

conductr 2y ago

They article quotes $1400 for these bikes as initial investment. Add that to my personal assertation that anyone working on a bike should be handy enough to DIY for all things related to service/repair. Bikes are not hard to work on at all. If you agree with that, then you should be able to convert a standard bike to an e-bike with a couple hundred dollar kit that is readily available. Unless there's some kind of market capture here where they can't access the cheap parts I have access too via Alibaba/Amazon, this could easily be a DIY with a few simple tools and some research on YT. I've done this myself with no special electronic experience (however, I did service my own BMX bikes when I was a kid/teen).

bobthepanda 2y ago
The only issue with the cheap kits is that they seem to be much likelier to catch fire.
- conductr 2y ago
  You can buy well built kits that are inexpensive. If you buy the cheapest available on Alibaba then maybe there's some risk of this
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    Do you have any recommendations for something weatherproof? Maybe something easy to convert back to regular bike? I would love for a little supplementary power to flatten the hills on the commute.