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The fundamental problem with Zynga products is that they're not games. The fact that they famously concentrate on "compulsion loops" and forming habits in thei

by balloot 14y ago

The fundamental problem with Zynga products is that they're not games. The fact that they famously concentrate on "compulsion loops" and forming habits in their users tells you all you need to know. No real game has to focus on the compulsion to play - they just make the core game experience great so you come back. Not to mention that compulsion loops require user gratification, and there's only so much gratification you can squeeze out of harvesting digital goods. The one notable exception is Poker. Poker is an actual game, and not shockingly it's the Zynga product with the most profitability and longevity.

jay_kyburz 14y ago
I wouldn't go that far. I would say a game like Diablo is basically just the same kind of "compulsion loop". Just done better. :)
- robryan 14y ago
  One difference with Diablo is that I can stop playing for a month and then come back to the game. Most of the social games are trying to encourage constant interaction, if you don't harvest your crops today they will die etc. WoW was/ is somewhat like that, if you wanted to get the best gear/ achievements in the game you would have to play many hours daily to keep up with points, clear the top level raids etc.
  - stan_rogers 14y ago
    That's why I never got into any of the Zynga games on FB -- they had the strong scent of Tamagotchi (now with extra spam!!!) about them, and I just can't see the faintest promise of pleasure in keeping a digital pet alive, no matter how they're painted. If that makes me weird, then I shall continue to be one with my weirdness.
    - robryan 14y ago
      Yeah, their definitely is a personality type out there they can target though. When younger I put a lot of time into WoW although I never played Zynga games past the initial novelty, nowhere near enough depth. Now that I run my own businesses I am definitely after something I can pickup when I have a bit of time and not have it become a chore.
- jquery 14y ago
  > I would say a game like Diablo is basically just the same kind of "compulsion loop". Just done better. :) Look no further than the extraordinary backlash against Diablo 3 to see the problem with that "compulsion loop" applied against modern gamers. To be honest, I don't think the problem is necessarily with the compulsion loop itself (Diablo 2 had no such backlash). But when combined with a real-money "Paid Advantage" model, it creates a huge populist backlash against the game.
saraid216 14y ago
What, no casino analogy? Zynga products are games. (Note: I'm 100% anti-Zynga, but I'm also something of an amateur game theorist. Thus, this will be a bit pedantic.) Zynga products are essentially casino games (which are also compulsion loops) but reinvented for social media. Zynga differs from the casino in two essential ways: (1) instead of being driven by thrill and desperate hope, the compulsion loop is built on peer pressure and sunk costs; (2) instead of being a consummate pseudo-elite luxury experience, it's a habit-forming and largely pointless chore. Poker (Disclaimer: I have not played Zynga Poker; I'm inferring) doesn't succeed because it's somehow more of a "real game"; Poker succeeds because it's better crafted, largely by years of free play testing in the real world. While in other Zynga products, you're made to feel like you're building up to something, you aren't in Poker. This means that the "user gratification [being] squeezed" is effectively infinite: the false hope being offered is far more acceptable. Poker is older than the Internet. If you plunge deep into the ivory tower of the games business, sure, you'll find that the term "game" is very hard to lock down properly. You'll probably even find a useful definition that manages to exclude Zynga products without excluding sensible games. But you'll also inevitably find it is full of problems anyways. In the larger picture, Zynga products are games. They're well-designed for the short-sightedness that they're meant for: making money for Zynga in the present: but as you say, that short-sightedness is likely to bite them in the end.
- pessimizer 14y ago
  Casino games aren't really games either. They're all solved, when you play them you've already lost, and the best thing you can do (other than leave) is follow the program to lose the least (barring blackjack, which gives you something like a +0.1% with ideal play IIRC.) The only way to win a casino game is to stop playing. Casino games are "games" like lottery tickets and Candyland are "games," and far less than sports books or parimutuel race betting are. Any definition of "game" that is inclusive of casino games can pretty much encompass any process that has steps that are done in turn. They are simply spaced doses of reward and punishment doled out by a random number generator. Poker, like you said, is not a casino game. It can be made into a casino game, as long as you remove all opponents and rearrange the rules to make it a constantly losing proposition.
michaelochurch 14y ago
it's the Zynga product with the most profitability and longevity. I'd be hesitant to quantify over the entire space of "Zynga product", because the average adult human produces 1 to 1.5 pounds of Zynga product per day.

by balloot 14y ago

jay_kyburz 14y ago

I wouldn't go that far. I would say a game like Diablo is basically just the same kind of "compulsion loop". Just done better. :)

robryan 14y ago
One difference with Diablo is that I can stop playing for a month and then come back to the game. Most of the social games are trying to encourage constant interaction, if you don't harvest your crops today they will die etc. WoW was/ is somewhat like that, if you wanted to get the best gear/ achievements in the game you would have to play many hours daily to keep up with points, clear the top level raids etc.
- stan_rogers 14y ago
  That's why I never got into any of the Zynga games on FB -- they had the strong scent of Tamagotchi (now with extra spam!!!) about them, and I just can't see the faintest promise of pleasure in keeping a digital pet alive, no matter how they're painted. If that makes me weird, then I shall continue to be one with my weirdness.
  - robryan 14y ago
    Yeah, their definitely is a personality type out there they can target though. When younger I put a lot of time into WoW although I never played Zynga games past the initial novelty, nowhere near enough depth. Now that I run my own businesses I am definitely after something I can pickup when I have a bit of time and not have it become a chore.
jquery 14y ago
> I would say a game like Diablo is basically just the same kind of "compulsion loop". Just done better. :) Look no further than the extraordinary backlash against Diablo 3 to see the problem with that "compulsion loop" applied against modern gamers. To be honest, I don't think the problem is necessarily with the compulsion loop itself (Diablo 2 had no such backlash). But when combined with a real-money "Paid Advantage" model, it creates a huge populist backlash against the game.

saraid216 14y ago

What, no casino analogy? Zynga products are games. (Note: I'm 100% anti-Zynga, but I'm also something of an amateur game theorist. Thus, this will be a bit pedantic.) Zynga products are essentially casino games (which are also compulsion loops) but reinvented for social media. Zynga differs from the casino in two essential ways: (1) instead of being driven by thrill and desperate hope, the compulsion loop is built on peer pressure and sunk costs; (2) instead of being a consummate pseudo-elite luxury experience, it's a habit-forming and largely pointless chore. Poker (Disclaimer: I have not played Zynga Poker; I'm inferring) doesn't succeed because it's somehow more of a "real game"; Poker succeeds because it's better crafted, largely by years of free play testing in the real world. While in other Zynga products, you're made to feel like you're building up to something, you aren't in Poker. This means that the "user gratification [being] squeezed" is effectively infinite: the false hope being offered is far more acceptable. Poker is older than the Internet. If you plunge deep into the ivory tower of the games business, sure, you'll find that the term "game" is very hard to lock down properly. You'll probably even find a useful definition that manages to exclude Zynga products without excluding sensible games. But you'll also inevitably find it is full of problems anyways. In the larger picture, Zynga products are games. They're well-designed for the short-sightedness that they're meant for: making money for Zynga in the present: but as you say, that short-sightedness is likely to bite them in the end.

pessimizer 14y ago
Casino games aren't really games either. They're all solved, when you play them you've already lost, and the best thing you can do (other than leave) is follow the program to lose the least (barring blackjack, which gives you something like a +0.1% with ideal play IIRC.) The only way to win a casino game is to stop playing. Casino games are "games" like lottery tickets and Candyland are "games," and far less than sports books or parimutuel race betting are. Any definition of "game" that is inclusive of casino games can pretty much encompass any process that has steps that are done in turn. They are simply spaced doses of reward and punishment doled out by a random number generator. Poker, like you said, is not a casino game. It can be made into a casino game, as long as you remove all opponents and rearrange the rules to make it a constantly losing proposition.

michaelochurch 14y ago

it's the Zynga product with the most profitability and longevity. I'd be hesitant to quantify over the entire space of "Zynga product", because the average adult human produces 1 to 1.5 pounds of Zynga product per day.