3 ms·

Ah yes most europe is disenfranchised

tzs 2y ago
Are you referring to most of Europe requiring voter ID at the polls? If so that is not comparable to the US because in Europe they actually try to make it easy for people are are eligible to vote to actually get the required ID. In the US the states that have added stricter voting ID requirements have done things like: • Close the offices that issue ID in areas that tend to vote against the party that is imposing the ID requirement. • Reduce the hours that the remaining offices will issue ID, often meaning that to get an ID you have to visit in a middle of a weekday. For poorer people this can mean losing a whole day of work to try to get ID, and can be expensive because the states doing this tend to have poor public transit. These people are also more likely to vote for the other party. • Allow alternate forms of ID for people who don't have a driver's license. This should be a good thing, but when you look at what alternates are allowed you find things like a state issued hunting license is acceptable but a state issued student ID from a state university is not even though the hunting license and the student ID are both equally is reliable when it comes to showing identity. They say it is just coincidence that people with hunting licenses are far more likely to vote for the party imposing the ID requirements and people with student IDs are far more likely to vote for the other party. In addition it can cost $100 or more to get the documents needed to get the ID, which is a significant expense to many less well off people (especially added to the lost wages in states where they have to miss work to get the ID). If they proposed voter ID laws that included funding to help people get IDs so that the above problems went away most of the opposition would go away. But they never do because the point is not to prevent the fraud that they say is happening (but can never find any evidence for). It is to make it hard for people who vote the wrong way to vote. Further evidence that is the real goal can be seen by looking at the other things they are doing, such as reducing the number of polling places in areas that vote the wrong way so that there will be long lines. That discourages people from voting in those areas. They also have made laws criminalizing providing food or water to people in those lines making it even harder for people to stick it out until they can vote. Another trick is to go through the registration list and purge people for whom there is some doubt about their continuing eligibility to vote. Normally that's a good thing and is a normal part of a well fun election system, but it can be turned into a disenfranchisement tactic by doing such a just before an election and not trying to notify the purged people so that they only find out when they actually try to vote. I'll give you one guess which party does most of the "just before the election" purges and which districts they are more likely to do them in. A purge that is not intended as a disenfranchisement tactic would occur in the years between elections and those purged would be sent notice so people would have plenty of time to reregister if they were still eligible. How many of the things described above are also done in Europe?
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  You are shifting goalposts...
  - esseph 2y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean because given the context, that phrase you said does not make sense. Can you say it a different way? Specificity would help.
    - dzhiurgis 2y ago
      The problem isn't requirement of ID, but how hard is it to get an ID to begin with? It does seem to be almost uniquely US problem (even when 90% of voters are also drivers). Given social security, where you are about to receive thousands of dollars in support while you are unemployed, why would a $100 ID matter? Like if you can't even pull up your pants and organize this key item of life, why should you receive support? Voting is more interesting one. Supposedly better educated and better well off democratic voters aren't able to procure an ID? WTF I am reading?
      - esseph 2y ago
        "If you can't pull up your pants and organize this key item of life, why should you receive support?" That's interesting.
      - Volundr 2y ago
        > Like if you can't even pull up your pants and organize this key item of life, why should you receive support? How many social security recipients do you suppose are disabled? Are only those of sound body and mind deserving of the social security they've been paying into their whole lives?
        dzhiurgis 2y ago
        Obvious solution is for social security offices to issue Id’s if they are capable. Other one is delegating most of the function to banks. But otherwise perhaps inconveniencing 0.1% of cases shouldn’t dictate the rules. IMO this is prime example of self destructing empathy Musk has been parroting about.

tzs 2y ago

Are you referring to most of Europe requiring voter ID at the polls? If so that is not comparable to the US because in Europe they actually try to make it easy for people are are eligible to vote to actually get the required ID. In the US the states that have added stricter voting ID requirements have done things like: • Close the offices that issue ID in areas that tend to vote against the party that is imposing the ID requirement. • Reduce the hours that the remaining offices will issue ID, often meaning that to get an ID you have to visit in a middle of a weekday. For poorer people this can mean losing a whole day of work to try to get ID, and can be expensive because the states doing this tend to have poor public transit. These people are also more likely to vote for the other party. • Allow alternate forms of ID for people who don't have a driver's license. This should be a good thing, but when you look at what alternates are allowed you find things like a state issued hunting license is acceptable but a state issued student ID from a state university is not even though the hunting license and the student ID are both equally is reliable when it comes to showing identity. They say it is just coincidence that people with hunting licenses are far more likely to vote for the party imposing the ID requirements and people with student IDs are far more likely to vote for the other party. In addition it can cost $100 or more to get the documents needed to get the ID, which is a significant expense to many less well off people (especially added to the lost wages in states where they have to miss work to get the ID). If they proposed voter ID laws that included funding to help people get IDs so that the above problems went away most of the opposition would go away. But they never do because the point is not to prevent the fraud that they say is happening (but can never find any evidence for). It is to make it hard for people who vote the wrong way to vote. Further evidence that is the real goal can be seen by looking at the other things they are doing, such as reducing the number of polling places in areas that vote the wrong way so that there will be long lines. That discourages people from voting in those areas. They also have made laws criminalizing providing food or water to people in those lines making it even harder for people to stick it out until they can vote. Another trick is to go through the registration list and purge people for whom there is some doubt about their continuing eligibility to vote. Normally that's a good thing and is a normal part of a well fun election system, but it can be turned into a disenfranchisement tactic by doing such a just before an election and not trying to notify the purged people so that they only find out when they actually try to vote. I'll give you one guess which party does most of the "just before the election" purges and which districts they are more likely to do them in. A purge that is not intended as a disenfranchisement tactic would occur in the years between elections and those purged would be sent notice so people would have plenty of time to reregister if they were still eligible. How many of the things described above are also done in Europe?

dzhiurgis 2y ago
You are shifting goalposts...
- esseph 2y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean because given the context, that phrase you said does not make sense. Can you say it a different way? Specificity would help.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    The problem isn't requirement of ID, but how hard is it to get an ID to begin with? It does seem to be almost uniquely US problem (even when 90% of voters are also drivers). Given social security, where you are about to receive thousands of dollars in support while you are unemployed, why would a $100 ID matter? Like if you can't even pull up your pants and organize this key item of life, why should you receive support? Voting is more interesting one. Supposedly better educated and better well off democratic voters aren't able to procure an ID? WTF I am reading?
    - esseph 2y ago
      "If you can't pull up your pants and organize this key item of life, why should you receive support?" That's interesting.
    - Volundr 2y ago
      > Like if you can't even pull up your pants and organize this key item of life, why should you receive support? How many social security recipients do you suppose are disabled? Are only those of sound body and mind deserving of the social security they've been paying into their whole lives?
      - dzhiurgis 2y ago
        Obvious solution is for social security offices to issue Id’s if they are capable. Other one is delegating most of the function to banks. But otherwise perhaps inconveniencing 0.1% of cases shouldn’t dictate the rules. IMO this is prime example of self destructing empathy Musk has been parroting about.