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> Most of the infrastructure you need for ATProto, you can run yourself today. Citation needed. Without the AppView and their relays you are left only with you

> Most of the infrastructure you need for ATProto, you can run yourself today. Citation needed. Without the AppView and their relays you are left only with your identity and your data, which by itself is not a social media/messaging platform.

pfraze 2y ago
…both of which you can run yourself
- what 2y ago
  And how much would it cost me to run the app view?
  - verdverm 2y ago
    An AppView is a bit more than just the code. In example, you have to do moderation, which involves paying people for a thankless, awful task. (unless you are just a thin client to Bluesky records and rely on their moderation)
- riffraff 2y ago
  As I understand it, there's an argument that while in theory you can, in practice you cannot so easily, e.g. you needed 5 terabyte of storage for a relay already some months ago. I think this[0] was on HN some time ago with good reasoning about bluesky offering a "potentially decentralized enough" while not actually being so. 0: https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/ https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/
  - pjc50 2y ago
    > you needed 5 terabyte of storage for a relay I have sixteen terabytes mirrored sitting next to my television. It's 2025. Sixteen terabytes is not that much any more. But rather than the only options being "global megacorp" or "individual", I think people should consider the possibility of medium-sized collective organizations for doing this kind of thing. You could club together to run a PDS. There are more options for organizational scale than "huge" or "atomized".
    - DrammBA 2y ago
      > I have sixteen terabytes mirrored sitting next to my television. It's 2025. Sixteen terabytes is not that much any more. I have a 512GB laptop and a 64GB phone, that's all the local storage I own.
    - Jaxan 2y ago
      A 5TB drive would cost more than 100€. Definitely more than I would like to spend on joining a social network.
      - odo1242 2y ago
        That would be the amount to create a new social network that interoperates with the old one. Joining a social network only requires hosting a PDS, not a relay (basically free)
    - riffraff 2y ago
      I don't think you should see the 5T number as static, but rather as "it took a couple months and 20M users to get to 5TB", which projects to hundreds of terabytes of storage pretty quickly. I agree 100% with you that we probably want mid-scale orgs to run relays and those would be able to run it without issues (I wrote "not so easy" rather than "impossible" :) ) but I think it's significant we haven't seen a single one popping up yet. But again, the article I linked makes a very good point: Bluesky does not need to actually be decentralized as long as it is a "credible exit" that someone else could in theory run their own Relay/AppView, even if no-one does.

pfraze 2y ago

…both of which you can run yourself

what 2y ago
And how much would it cost me to run the app view?
- verdverm 2y ago
  An AppView is a bit more than just the code. In example, you have to do moderation, which involves paying people for a thankless, awful task. (unless you are just a thin client to Bluesky records and rely on their moderation)
riffraff 2y ago
As I understand it, there's an argument that while in theory you can, in practice you cannot so easily, e.g. you needed 5 terabyte of storage for a relay already some months ago. I think this[0] was on HN some time ago with good reasoning about bluesky offering a "potentially decentralized enough" while not actually being so. 0: https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/ https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/
- pjc50 2y ago
  > you needed 5 terabyte of storage for a relay I have sixteen terabytes mirrored sitting next to my television. It's 2025. Sixteen terabytes is not that much any more. But rather than the only options being "global megacorp" or "individual", I think people should consider the possibility of medium-sized collective organizations for doing this kind of thing. You could club together to run a PDS. There are more options for organizational scale than "huge" or "atomized".
  - DrammBA 2y ago
    > I have sixteen terabytes mirrored sitting next to my television. It's 2025. Sixteen terabytes is not that much any more. I have a 512GB laptop and a 64GB phone, that's all the local storage I own.
  - Jaxan 2y ago
    A 5TB drive would cost more than 100€. Definitely more than I would like to spend on joining a social network.
    - odo1242 2y ago
      That would be the amount to create a new social network that interoperates with the old one. Joining a social network only requires hosting a PDS, not a relay (basically free)
  - riffraff 2y ago
    I don't think you should see the 5T number as static, but rather as "it took a couple months and 20M users to get to 5TB", which projects to hundreds of terabytes of storage pretty quickly. I agree 100% with you that we probably want mid-scale orgs to run relays and those would be able to run it without issues (I wrote "not so easy" rather than "impossible" :) ) but I think it's significant we haven't seen a single one popping up yet. But again, the article I linked makes a very good point: Bluesky does not need to actually be decentralized as long as it is a "credible exit" that someone else could in theory run their own Relay/AppView, even if no-one does.