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To add insult to injury, it could be the case that Erdogan's degree is fake [1] (I don't know of a single Turkish person NOT voting for him that thinks that h

To add insult to injury, it could be the case that Erdogan's degree is fake [1] (I don't know of a single Turkish person NOT voting for him that thinks that his degree is authentic) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan_university_diploma_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan_univ...

msm_ 2y ago
From a brief reading of the wikipedia article you linked, I'm under impression that the accusations are baseless (given that there are - supposedly - witnesses and his former classmates that confirm his version, and apparently no whistleblowers that present a proof otherwise). The sources are in Turkish so I didn't consult them[1]. Is the article biased or omits some important context? Since you believe the degree is not authentic I assume you know about some things suggesting misconduct. [1] Yes, I could translate them, but I'm not prepared to go down this particular rabbit hole.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Before the 2000s, depending on how overtly conservative you were and who was in govenenent (coups, counter-coups, and fits of "democracy" happened every couple years), you might not have been allowed to attend at all. An entire generation of women from conservative backgrounds couldn't attend university in Turkiye until the 2000s because of the hijab ban. Unsurprisingly, once conservative Turkish politicians like Erdogan took power, they came with vengeance. Didn't help that rural, working class, and certain ethnicities (Anatolian Turks, Kurds) were more conservative than others - go to Istanbul Airport sometime and count how many un-hijabed vs hijabed women work as the bathroom cleaning staff. Of course, those same conservative politicians then do the exact same shenanigans of corruption, power politics, and authoritarianism, and so the cycle continues. The intersectionality between class, religion, ideology, and ethnicity makes Turkish politics wonky.
  - eru 2y ago
    > Of course, those same conservative politicians then do the exact same shenanigans of corruption, power politics, and authoritarianism, and so the cycle continues. The curious things was that early in Erdogan's reign, that is during the 2000s, Turkey seemed to be genuinely making progress, especially in terms of economic policy and outcomes. That's when he was still making fairly orthodox reforms more or less along the lines required by the EU for aspiring new members. (Yes, neoliberal reforms work!) In the last few years we saw more 'interesting' economic ideas from Erdogan, like that high interest rates cause inflation.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      > In the last few years we saw more 'interesting' economic ideas from Erdogan, like that high interest rates cause inflation Basically a bailout for AKP aligned construction oligarchs like MAPA Group. Turkiye did the same thing in the 2000s that China did in the 2010s with real estate construction. > Turkey seemed to be genuinely making progress, especially in terms of economic policy and outcomes. That's when he was still making fairly orthodox reforms more or less along the lines required by the EU for aspiring new members. (Yes, neoliberal reforms work!) Yep, but moreso IMF, because Erdogan 1.0 still had to follow IMF terms and reforms from the 2001 bailout.
      - eru 2y ago
        Yes, IMF rules and EU neoliberal orthodoxy actually work. Have a look at the development of Greek unemployment numbers over the last decade or so. It has been a steady downward march, with Covid merely a minor blip. (Having said that, unemployment is still at something like 10%. That's bad, but far from 'basket case' territory.)
        ashoeafoot 2y ago
        because thr youth left in droves? Empty house == good statistics
- terminalcommand 2y ago
  I think you are confusing Erdogan with Imamoglu. Imamoglu has photographs, classmates, there is no doubt that he attended college. His diploma was anulled because he transferred initially from a different college. He spent 4 years at the Istanbul uni, attended classes, passed the exams, there is no doubt in that. On the other hand, Erdogan does not have a single photograph during his university years, no classmates to back his story. He started a two year degree, but there is no evidence he attended a four year program. A public notary issued a same as original certification on a disputed document. The original diploma of erdogan cannot be found. Looking at the date of the diploma, the university faculty didn't even exist yet.
  - msm_ 2y ago
    I am not confusing anyone with anyone, just discussing the linked Wikipedia article. A few quotes: >Aydın Ayaydın, a Member of Parliament from the opposition party CHP said that Erdoğan participated in the four-year degree education of Aksaray Academy of Economic and Commercial Sciences, as Ayaydın himself was a teacher of Erdoğan. Expressing that he remembers Erdoğan and his classmates very well, Ayaydın said "one of his classmates is Mehmet Emin Arat, who currently is a professor at Marmara University >Mehmet Emin Arat himself called the claims on Erdoğan not having a degree "unfair" and "baseless", stating that "the claims do not have any legal, official or historical basis".[14] >Israeli Journalist Rafael Sadi, who was another classmate of Erdoğan,[15] said that he was irritated by "people that are telling baseless lies just to slander the man for the sake of opposition" and shared the names of professors that he and Erdoğan followed courses from. Of course they can all be bribed and/or lying, but the Wikipedia article as written supports the version that his diploma is legitimate. Or at least that's my reading.
vvchvb 2y ago
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tarikozket 2y ago
that's how the opposition party started the discussions. however, they went quiet after a key member from the opposition said that he went to college with Erdogan and they attended the classes together: here is the blooper a TV news channel that leans towards the opposition side had. you can see how their postures and gestures change immediately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20szE-7h4NA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20szE-7h4NA extended interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhCfXFZgd0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhCfXFZgd0I
benterix 2y ago
No surprise, these folks always accuse others of what they themselves. My pet peeve theory is because they're not great thinkers and they just use what they know best.
- jajko 2y ago
  Just like russia using ukraine neonazis as one of pretexts of the war, while sporting much larger (and government+orthodox church-controlled) population of such themselves. Using such arguments shows how critically thinking (and actually free) population given state has. They wouldnt use it if they would be scolded and mocked from majority.
- butler14 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusation_in_a_mirror https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusation_in_a_mirror
- snthpy 2y ago
  So true! It's a psychological phenomenon called Projection. I think it's quite universal though. It's like our understanding of other people is an extrapolation of our understanding of ourselves. Perhaps people with high EQ can put themselves in the others' position, but many just default to the projection. Since i learned about this a few years ago, it has explained a lot. For example the WFH vs RTO debate, people who work well from home assume that naturally others would too and vice versa. So to figure out what people are up to, just listen to what they accuse others of doing. Prominent US realiTV politician is a perfect example.

msm_ 2y ago

From a brief reading of the wikipedia article you linked, I'm under impression that the accusations are baseless (given that there are - supposedly - witnesses and his former classmates that confirm his version, and apparently no whistleblowers that present a proof otherwise). The sources are in Turkish so I didn't consult them[1]. Is the article biased or omits some important context? Since you believe the degree is not authentic I assume you know about some things suggesting misconduct. [1] Yes, I could translate them, but I'm not prepared to go down this particular rabbit hole.

alephnerd 2y ago
Before the 2000s, depending on how overtly conservative you were and who was in govenenent (coups, counter-coups, and fits of "democracy" happened every couple years), you might not have been allowed to attend at all. An entire generation of women from conservative backgrounds couldn't attend university in Turkiye until the 2000s because of the hijab ban. Unsurprisingly, once conservative Turkish politicians like Erdogan took power, they came with vengeance. Didn't help that rural, working class, and certain ethnicities (Anatolian Turks, Kurds) were more conservative than others - go to Istanbul Airport sometime and count how many un-hijabed vs hijabed women work as the bathroom cleaning staff. Of course, those same conservative politicians then do the exact same shenanigans of corruption, power politics, and authoritarianism, and so the cycle continues. The intersectionality between class, religion, ideology, and ethnicity makes Turkish politics wonky.
- eru 2y ago
  > Of course, those same conservative politicians then do the exact same shenanigans of corruption, power politics, and authoritarianism, and so the cycle continues. The curious things was that early in Erdogan's reign, that is during the 2000s, Turkey seemed to be genuinely making progress, especially in terms of economic policy and outcomes. That's when he was still making fairly orthodox reforms more or less along the lines required by the EU for aspiring new members. (Yes, neoliberal reforms work!) In the last few years we saw more 'interesting' economic ideas from Erdogan, like that high interest rates cause inflation.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > In the last few years we saw more 'interesting' economic ideas from Erdogan, like that high interest rates cause inflation Basically a bailout for AKP aligned construction oligarchs like MAPA Group. Turkiye did the same thing in the 2000s that China did in the 2010s with real estate construction. > Turkey seemed to be genuinely making progress, especially in terms of economic policy and outcomes. That's when he was still making fairly orthodox reforms more or less along the lines required by the EU for aspiring new members. (Yes, neoliberal reforms work!) Yep, but moreso IMF, because Erdogan 1.0 still had to follow IMF terms and reforms from the 2001 bailout.
    - eru 2y ago
      Yes, IMF rules and EU neoliberal orthodoxy actually work. Have a look at the development of Greek unemployment numbers over the last decade or so. It has been a steady downward march, with Covid merely a minor blip. (Having said that, unemployment is still at something like 10%. That's bad, but far from 'basket case' territory.)
      - ashoeafoot 2y ago
        because thr youth left in droves? Empty house == good statistics
terminalcommand 2y ago
I think you are confusing Erdogan with Imamoglu. Imamoglu has photographs, classmates, there is no doubt that he attended college. His diploma was anulled because he transferred initially from a different college. He spent 4 years at the Istanbul uni, attended classes, passed the exams, there is no doubt in that. On the other hand, Erdogan does not have a single photograph during his university years, no classmates to back his story. He started a two year degree, but there is no evidence he attended a four year program. A public notary issued a same as original certification on a disputed document. The original diploma of erdogan cannot be found. Looking at the date of the diploma, the university faculty didn't even exist yet.
- msm_ 2y ago
  I am not confusing anyone with anyone, just discussing the linked Wikipedia article. A few quotes: >Aydın Ayaydın, a Member of Parliament from the opposition party CHP said that Erdoğan participated in the four-year degree education of Aksaray Academy of Economic and Commercial Sciences, as Ayaydın himself was a teacher of Erdoğan. Expressing that he remembers Erdoğan and his classmates very well, Ayaydın said "one of his classmates is Mehmet Emin Arat, who currently is a professor at Marmara University >Mehmet Emin Arat himself called the claims on Erdoğan not having a degree "unfair" and "baseless", stating that "the claims do not have any legal, official or historical basis".[14] >Israeli Journalist Rafael Sadi, who was another classmate of Erdoğan,[15] said that he was irritated by "people that are telling baseless lies just to slander the man for the sake of opposition" and shared the names of professors that he and Erdoğan followed courses from. Of course they can all be bribed and/or lying, but the Wikipedia article as written supports the version that his diploma is legitimate. Or at least that's my reading.

vvchvb 2y ago

[dead]

tarikozket 2y ago

that's how the opposition party started the discussions. however, they went quiet after a key member from the opposition said that he went to college with Erdogan and they attended the classes together: here is the blooper a TV news channel that leans towards the opposition side had. you can see how their postures and gestures change immediately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20szE-7h4NA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20szE-7h4NA extended interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhCfXFZgd0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhCfXFZgd0I

benterix 2y ago

No surprise, these folks always accuse others of what they themselves. My pet peeve theory is because they're not great thinkers and they just use what they know best.

jajko 2y ago
Just like russia using ukraine neonazis as one of pretexts of the war, while sporting much larger (and government+orthodox church-controlled) population of such themselves. Using such arguments shows how critically thinking (and actually free) population given state has. They wouldnt use it if they would be scolded and mocked from majority.
butler14 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusation_in_a_mirror https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusation_in_a_mirror
snthpy 2y ago
So true! It's a psychological phenomenon called Projection. I think it's quite universal though. It's like our understanding of other people is an extrapolation of our understanding of ourselves. Perhaps people with high EQ can put themselves in the others' position, but many just default to the projection. Since i learned about this a few years ago, it has explained a lot. For example the WFH vs RTO debate, people who work well from home assume that naturally others would too and vice versa. So to figure out what people are up to, just listen to what they accuse others of doing. Prominent US realiTV politician is a perfect example.