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It depends on how strongly you interpret “zionism”. It’s true “Israel should be a country” has broad support. But a majority of Jewish people oppose the curren

It depends on how strongly you interpret “zionism”. It’s true “Israel should be a country” has broad support. But a majority of Jewish people oppose the current government, and a majority say Israel is not essential to Jewish identity. On the extreme end, 1 in 10 support BDS, and Jewish anti-zionist grouos exist: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_anti-Zionist_organizations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_anti-Zionist_...

thomassmith65 2y ago
Those stats seem correct. It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism. It's true the concepts are orthogonal, but in the real world, if someone is railing against zionists, they implicate the vast majority of jews. That isn't necessarily a problem (if a view is wrong, it's wrong whether one person or 1000 people hold it) but it's Israel/Palestine... people get so angry and use rhetoric about 'zionists' that sounds ugly - at least, if one remembers the term applies to most of the world's jews.
- relaxing 2y ago
  No one said that though, not in this thread. And I’ve given you stats that say you’re wrong.
  - thomassmith65 2y ago
    Those stats seem correct. It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism. The point I was, a bit clumsily, trying to make in that part of my comment was that your stats, while correct, probably still leave most jews sympathetic to zionism. The reason I was nitpicky about that is that some Palestinian activists (apologies for implying I meant you) justify creepy uses of the term 'zionists' by casting doubt that it applies to most jews.
    - relaxing 2y ago
      But when people talk about Zionism they don’t just mean “Israel should be a country” — that’s been a moot point since 1948. They’re referring to a stronger form of nationalism, god-given right, ethnic supremacy, violent suppression, etc.
      - thomassmith65 2y ago
        It could be some mental deficit on my part, but this makes no sense to me. The question of whether Israel should be a country or not seems like a living question to me: neighboring nations don't recognize it as legitimate, and my impression is that neither do most Palestinians. They’re referring to a stronger form of nationalism, god-given right, ethnic supremacy, violent suppression, etc. If this is what people are using as a definition, that seems like a problem in itself, because it tosses all sorts of people with less obnoxious views into the same category. It would be like substituting the word 'Americans' for 'Trump voters' in situations where the latter is more accurate.
        relaxing 2y ago
        That is precisely the problem. The people you see online protesting Zionism most likely don’t hold the same views as Hezbollah or Ayatollah Khomeini. You can see why it’s frustrating to be painted with that brush. Just like most Americans bristle at being painted as Trump voters. It’s worth noting in this century Palestinian support for a two state solution has been as high as 75%.
        thomassmith65 2y ago
        That's a new issue, but, for what it's worth: shame on people who do that. Palestinian support for a two state solution has been as high as 75% If I were Palestinian, I might accept a two-state solution, but, since Palestinians had little to do with the plight of jews outside the middle east, I doubt I could ever consider Israel a legitimate state.

thomassmith65 2y ago

Those stats seem correct. It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism. It's true the concepts are orthogonal, but in the real world, if someone is railing against zionists, they implicate the vast majority of jews. That isn't necessarily a problem (if a view is wrong, it's wrong whether one person or 1000 people hold it) but it's Israel/Palestine... people get so angry and use rhetoric about 'zionists' that sounds ugly - at least, if one remembers the term applies to most of the world's jews.

relaxing 2y ago
No one said that though, not in this thread. And I’ve given you stats that say you’re wrong.
- thomassmith65 2y ago
  Those stats seem correct. It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism. The point I was, a bit clumsily, trying to make in that part of my comment was that your stats, while correct, probably still leave most jews sympathetic to zionism. The reason I was nitpicky about that is that some Palestinian activists (apologies for implying I meant you) justify creepy uses of the term 'zionists' by casting doubt that it applies to most jews.
  - relaxing 2y ago
    But when people talk about Zionism they don’t just mean “Israel should be a country” — that’s been a moot point since 1948. They’re referring to a stronger form of nationalism, god-given right, ethnic supremacy, violent suppression, etc.
    - thomassmith65 2y ago
      It could be some mental deficit on my part, but this makes no sense to me. The question of whether Israel should be a country or not seems like a living question to me: neighboring nations don't recognize it as legitimate, and my impression is that neither do most Palestinians. They’re referring to a stronger form of nationalism, god-given right, ethnic supremacy, violent suppression, etc. If this is what people are using as a definition, that seems like a problem in itself, because it tosses all sorts of people with less obnoxious views into the same category. It would be like substituting the word 'Americans' for 'Trump voters' in situations where the latter is more accurate.
      - relaxing 2y ago
        That is precisely the problem. The people you see online protesting Zionism most likely don’t hold the same views as Hezbollah or Ayatollah Khomeini. You can see why it’s frustrating to be painted with that brush. Just like most Americans bristle at being painted as Trump voters. It’s worth noting in this century Palestinian support for a two state solution has been as high as 75%.
        thomassmith65 2y ago
        That's a new issue, but, for what it's worth: shame on people who do that. Palestinian support for a two state solution has been as high as 75% If I were Palestinian, I might accept a two-state solution, but, since Palestinians had little to do with the plight of jews outside the middle east, I doubt I could ever consider Israel a legitimate state.