4 ms·

Without paywall: https://archive.ph/sJcvp https://archive.ph/sJcvp I hope this stays up and we can have some quality discussion about what is ostensibly a hist

Without paywall: https://archive.ph/sJcvp https://archive.ph/sJcvp I hope this stays up and we can have some quality discussion about what is ostensibly a historical moment in time: the autophagy of a formerly democratic government. Long term (and short term, looking at the stock market) this can't be good for business right?! Who benefits?

thrance 2y ago
Only the, like, top 5 people by wealth in the country. Which coincidentally are the ones holding power today.
- sanderjd 2y ago
  They don't benefit though! This is bad for them too! Elon Musk is way poorer today than he was on inauguration day. What's going on right now is, truly, only good for nations that benefit from a week United States. But that realization is not (yet) evenly distributed.
  - MattPalmer1086 2y ago
    They do benefit a lot. They may have a smaller amount of money relative to what they could have had, but they have a LOT more power than they had before.
    - sanderjd 2y ago
      If the comment had said "the five most powerful people", I wouldn't have quibbled with it. But the overlap between the richest and the most powerful is not perfect, and the rich people outside that overlap are gonna be pissed.
      - AlecSchueler 2y ago
        But they will become considerably less rich while beconing no more powerful.
  - thrance 2y ago
    "Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" I guess. In terms of wealth they may have lost some, but they absolutely gained power. Fascism is only about power, it doesn't care about anything else. Especially not stability or rationality.
    - sanderjd 2y ago
      Not all of them have gained power in exchange for the wealth.
  - Muromec 2y ago
    >They don't benefit though! This is bad for them too! Elon Musk is way poorer today than he was on inauguration day. If the end goal is to become authoritarian shithole, then no, he isn't, as the government he captured will be buying teslas and space launches from him at a price he sets, quantity he (co)decides and quality that nobody oversees. That's a pessimistic take.
    - sanderjd 2y ago
      We'll see! That might be the goal. I'm pretty skeptical that is going to work. And a big part of the reason why is that there are a lot of wealthy businesspeople in the US, and that would be bad for most of them.
sanderjd 2y ago
The honest answer is that other autocratic regimes, who were enemies of the US until a couple months ago, greatly benefit from this. But it is bad for business, and once the entire business community in the US figures that out, I honestly do predict that this experiment in anti-Americanism is going to fail.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  That's assuming they figure it out fast enough.
- avidiax 2y ago
  > it is bad for business It is good for business, just one level more abstracted. You might look at the economy and think that it's an engine that uses capital to produce goods and services for the combined benefit. But one level higher, it's a way for the already rich and powerful to gain additional capital and power. From that point of view, temporarily depressing the stock market, real estate, dollar denominated assets, etc. is highly beneficial if you are properly positioned. You can permanently acquire lots of capital and annuities. Private equity can buy up US commercial and residential real estate. They can buy shares of stock at decreased prices. They can line themselves up to buy the federal government's real and liquid assets for pennies on the dollar, and further enrich themselves by entering new lines of business, like privatising public benefit programs, the USPS, etc.
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    Actually no, this is 4d chess bullshit. It's actually just bad for business.
  - AlecSchueler 2y ago
    "Temporarily" is in no way certain here.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rsynnott 2y ago
I mean, it's hard not to read it as an attempt to convert the US into a Russian-style mafia state, tbh. So, "who benefits" would generally be those oligarchs who manage to avoid lethal encounters with stairs, windows, etc., traditionally. It's somewhat unclear to what extent this will be allowed to continue. I kind of suspect that the Supreme Court is not actually as beholden to Trump as he perhaps thinks it is, and will pull the plug at some point. I also suspect that, if the market turmoil gets bad enough, Trump may dump Musk; if you look at his previous term, few of his people got through the whole term, and of course nothing is ever Trump's fault.

thrance 2y ago

Only the, like, top 5 people by wealth in the country. Which coincidentally are the ones holding power today.

sanderjd 2y ago
They don't benefit though! This is bad for them too! Elon Musk is way poorer today than he was on inauguration day. What's going on right now is, truly, only good for nations that benefit from a week United States. But that realization is not (yet) evenly distributed.
- MattPalmer1086 2y ago
  They do benefit a lot. They may have a smaller amount of money relative to what they could have had, but they have a LOT more power than they had before.
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    If the comment had said "the five most powerful people", I wouldn't have quibbled with it. But the overlap between the richest and the most powerful is not perfect, and the rich people outside that overlap are gonna be pissed.
    - AlecSchueler 2y ago
      But they will become considerably less rich while beconing no more powerful.
- thrance 2y ago
  "Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" I guess. In terms of wealth they may have lost some, but they absolutely gained power. Fascism is only about power, it doesn't care about anything else. Especially not stability or rationality.
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    Not all of them have gained power in exchange for the wealth.
- Muromec 2y ago
  >They don't benefit though! This is bad for them too! Elon Musk is way poorer today than he was on inauguration day. If the end goal is to become authoritarian shithole, then no, he isn't, as the government he captured will be buying teslas and space launches from him at a price he sets, quantity he (co)decides and quality that nobody oversees. That's a pessimistic take.
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    We'll see! That might be the goal. I'm pretty skeptical that is going to work. And a big part of the reason why is that there are a lot of wealthy businesspeople in the US, and that would be bad for most of them.

sanderjd 2y ago

The honest answer is that other autocratic regimes, who were enemies of the US until a couple months ago, greatly benefit from this. But it is bad for business, and once the entire business community in the US figures that out, I honestly do predict that this experiment in anti-Americanism is going to fail.

HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
That's assuming they figure it out fast enough.
avidiax 2y ago
> it is bad for business It is good for business, just one level more abstracted. You might look at the economy and think that it's an engine that uses capital to produce goods and services for the combined benefit. But one level higher, it's a way for the already rich and powerful to gain additional capital and power. From that point of view, temporarily depressing the stock market, real estate, dollar denominated assets, etc. is highly beneficial if you are properly positioned. You can permanently acquire lots of capital and annuities. Private equity can buy up US commercial and residential real estate. They can buy shares of stock at decreased prices. They can line themselves up to buy the federal government's real and liquid assets for pennies on the dollar, and further enrich themselves by entering new lines of business, like privatising public benefit programs, the USPS, etc.
- sanderjd 2y ago
  Actually no, this is 4d chess bullshit. It's actually just bad for business.
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  "Temporarily" is in no way certain here.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rsynnott 2y ago

I mean, it's hard not to read it as an attempt to convert the US into a Russian-style mafia state, tbh. So, "who benefits" would generally be those oligarchs who manage to avoid lethal encounters with stairs, windows, etc., traditionally. It's somewhat unclear to what extent this will be allowed to continue. I kind of suspect that the Supreme Court is not actually as beholden to Trump as he perhaps thinks it is, and will pull the plug at some point. I also suspect that, if the market turmoil gets bad enough, Trump may dump Musk; if you look at his previous term, few of his people got through the whole term, and of course nothing is ever Trump's fault.