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Israel really wants the whole world to conflate "Israeli", "Jewish" and "Zionist", but it is a lie. Is there data to support that it is a lie? I don't personal

Israel really wants the whole world to conflate "Israeli", "Jewish" and "Zionist", but it is a lie. Is there data to support that it is a lie? I don't personally know any Jews who are unsympathetic to Palestinians, but the percentage of Jews who are anti-zionist must be tiny. That makes sense, given the problems Jews had before Israel existed (like 1/3 dying in WWII)

Tostino 2y ago
Not OP... But here is the ADL saying being anti-zionist is a form of antisemitism: https://www.adl.org/resources/article/anti-zionism-antisemitism-how-anti-zionist-language-left-and-right-vilifies-jews https://www.adl.org/resources/article/anti-zionism-antisemit... You really have to bury your head in the sand to not see that being conflated in any media organization with ties to the ADL in their reporting. Really disgusting way of sewing division.
- thomassmith65 2y ago
  ...but no data showing it's a lie.
  - Tostino 2y ago
    I mean there were people on the ADL payroll who didn't agree with the way they were conflating the terms, and the groups involved: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/jan/05/adl-pro-israel-advocacy-zionism-antisemitism https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/jan/05/adl-pro-israel-...
    - thomassmith65 2y ago
      The point about Israelis and jews is perfectly valid. I probably know more about the country of Israel than plenty of jews in the UK (and I don't even know that much). With zionism, it's a little different: a person is a zionist by virtue of simply holding an opinion, and it's an opinion I have to imagine most jews hold.
      - Tostino 2y ago
        I don't know...I grew up in the southern US. There were plenty of people I knew who were evangelical but very pro-israel. Primarily so the end times would be brought on. At least around me, Christian Zionists are by far the majority.
        thomassmith65 2y ago
        That's an excellent point that hadn't crossed my mind. When I hear people discussing 'zionism' it never occurs to me they might be thinking of evangelical zionists. In my neck of the woods, where evangelicals have no presence at all, they probably aren't. In the South, they may well be. Edit: this kills me to say, because the way people discuss 'zionism' still creeps me out, but my argument was wrong. Since there is a substantial number of evangelical zionists, you were right to say jewish and zionist shouldn't be conflated.
        Tostino 2y ago
        I get it and I also feel quite weird about it. I always have to be careful when reading somebody's comment that mentions Zionism to see if they're just spouting conspiracy theories, if it's actually grounded in reality, or do they just hate Jewish people...
        worik 2y ago
        Exactly "Jewish" describes a race (usually a cultural construct, but Jews seem quite fierce about maintaining the family ties through the millennia) "Zionist" is the political idea that jews should go to Israel... Ok, but it is a cool place full of people already "Political Zionism " is the odious idea that there should be a Jewish state in Israel. Odious in that it deprives others of rights based on race We call that "Apartheid"
        thomassmith65 2y ago
        'Odious' is a bit too harsh considering what drove most Jews back to Israel was 2000 years of inquisitions, pogroms and a holocaust.
  - worik 2y ago
    Why do you need data for a philosophical distinction? Political Zionism (to be specific) is odious philosophically Right up there with the Afrikaans of South Africa and their racism And, theologically Jewdaism is fundamentally opposed to driving people from their homes, for it was done to them (by the Egyptians) The political Zionists of Israel are evil hideous creatures. You do not need data you need knowledge of current events and a heart A basic knowledge of Jewish theology will illustrate they are heretics as well
    - thomassmith65 2y ago
      Is it that hard to understand why so many jews moved to Israel? It's not primarily for supremacist or religious reasons, since the waves of immigration follow the holocaust, and various episodes of persecution and programs in Eastern Europe and throughout the whole Middle East. Why do you need data for a philosophical distinction? Because the philosophical distinction is not the only factor. Eg: philosophically, men can be feminists, but if I were to put up 'Feminists are evil' posters at my workplace, it matters that, in reality, many more women are feminists than men.
      - wizzwizz4 2y ago
        I expect most Emacs users are computer programmers. Does this mean that computer programming is, in some sense, inherently related to Emacs? Does it make sense to conflate "programmers" and "Emacs users"?
        thomassmith65 2y ago
        If a considerable number of people hated 'VS Code users' enough to kill them, which surprisingly is not the case, then, yes, rhetoric about 'the evil programmers' would raise legitimate concerns. This would especially be true if it were taboo to complain openly about 'VS Code users'
relaxing 2y ago
It depends on how strongly you interpret “zionism”. It’s true “Israel should be a country” has broad support. But a majority of Jewish people oppose the current government, and a majority say Israel is not essential to Jewish identity. On the extreme end, 1 in 10 support BDS, and Jewish anti-zionist grouos exist: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_anti-Zionist_organizations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_anti-Zionist_...
- thomassmith65 2y ago
  Those stats seem correct. It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism. It's true the concepts are orthogonal, but in the real world, if someone is railing against zionists, they implicate the vast majority of jews. That isn't necessarily a problem (if a view is wrong, it's wrong whether one person or 1000 people hold it) but it's Israel/Palestine... people get so angry and use rhetoric about 'zionists' that sounds ugly - at least, if one remembers the term applies to most of the world's jews.
  - relaxing 2y ago
    No one said that though, not in this thread. And I’ve given you stats that say you’re wrong.
    - thomassmith65 2y ago
      Those stats seem correct. It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism. The point I was, a bit clumsily, trying to make in that part of my comment was that your stats, while correct, probably still leave most jews sympathetic to zionism. The reason I was nitpicky about that is that some Palestinian activists (apologies for implying I meant you) justify creepy uses of the term 'zionists' by casting doubt that it applies to most jews.
      - relaxing 2y ago

Tostino 2y ago

Not OP... But here is the ADL saying being anti-zionist is a form of antisemitism: https://www.adl.org/resources/article/anti-zionism-antisemitism-how-anti-zionist-language-left-and-right-vilifies-jews https://www.adl.org/resources/article/anti-zionism-antisemit... You really have to bury your head in the sand to not see that being conflated in any media organization with ties to the ADL in their reporting. Really disgusting way of sewing division.

thomassmith65 2y ago
...but no data showing it's a lie.
- Tostino 2y ago
  I mean there were people on the ADL payroll who didn't agree with the way they were conflating the terms, and the groups involved: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/jan/05/adl-pro-israel-advocacy-zionism-antisemitism https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/jan/05/adl-pro-israel-...
  - thomassmith65 2y ago
    The point about Israelis and jews is perfectly valid. I probably know more about the country of Israel than plenty of jews in the UK (and I don't even know that much). With zionism, it's a little different: a person is a zionist by virtue of simply holding an opinion, and it's an opinion I have to imagine most jews hold.
    - Tostino 2y ago
      I don't know...I grew up in the southern US. There were plenty of people I knew who were evangelical but very pro-israel. Primarily so the end times would be brought on. At least around me, Christian Zionists are by far the majority.
      - thomassmith65 2y ago
        That's an excellent point that hadn't crossed my mind. When I hear people discussing 'zionism' it never occurs to me they might be thinking of evangelical zionists. In my neck of the woods, where evangelicals have no presence at all, they probably aren't. In the South, they may well be. Edit: this kills me to say, because the way people discuss 'zionism' still creeps me out, but my argument was wrong. Since there is a substantial number of evangelical zionists, you were right to say jewish and zionist shouldn't be conflated.
        Tostino 2y ago
        I get it and I also feel quite weird about it. I always have to be careful when reading somebody's comment that mentions Zionism to see if they're just spouting conspiracy theories, if it's actually grounded in reality, or do they just hate Jewish people...
        worik 2y ago
        Exactly "Jewish" describes a race (usually a cultural construct, but Jews seem quite fierce about maintaining the family ties through the millennia) "Zionist" is the political idea that jews should go to Israel... Ok, but it is a cool place full of people already "Political Zionism " is the odious idea that there should be a Jewish state in Israel. Odious in that it deprives others of rights based on race We call that "Apartheid"
        thomassmith65 2y ago
        'Odious' is a bit too harsh considering what drove most Jews back to Israel was 2000 years of inquisitions, pogroms and a holocaust.
- worik 2y ago
  Why do you need data for a philosophical distinction? Political Zionism (to be specific) is odious philosophically Right up there with the Afrikaans of South Africa and their racism And, theologically Jewdaism is fundamentally opposed to driving people from their homes, for it was done to them (by the Egyptians) The political Zionists of Israel are evil hideous creatures. You do not need data you need knowledge of current events and a heart A basic knowledge of Jewish theology will illustrate they are heretics as well
  - thomassmith65 2y ago
    Is it that hard to understand why so many jews moved to Israel? It's not primarily for supremacist or religious reasons, since the waves of immigration follow the holocaust, and various episodes of persecution and programs in Eastern Europe and throughout the whole Middle East. Why do you need data for a philosophical distinction? Because the philosophical distinction is not the only factor. Eg: philosophically, men can be feminists, but if I were to put up 'Feminists are evil' posters at my workplace, it matters that, in reality, many more women are feminists than men.
    - wizzwizz4 2y ago
      I expect most Emacs users are computer programmers. Does this mean that computer programming is, in some sense, inherently related to Emacs? Does it make sense to conflate "programmers" and "Emacs users"?
      - thomassmith65 2y ago
        If a considerable number of people hated 'VS Code users' enough to kill them, which surprisingly is not the case, then, yes, rhetoric about 'the evil programmers' would raise legitimate concerns. This would especially be true if it were taboo to complain openly about 'VS Code users'

relaxing 2y ago

It depends on how strongly you interpret “zionism”. It’s true “Israel should be a country” has broad support. But a majority of Jewish people oppose the current government, and a majority say Israel is not essential to Jewish identity. On the extreme end, 1 in 10 support BDS, and Jewish anti-zionist grouos exist: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_anti-Zionist_organizations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_anti-Zionist_...

thomassmith65 2y ago
Those stats seem correct. It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism. It's true the concepts are orthogonal, but in the real world, if someone is railing against zionists, they implicate the vast majority of jews. That isn't necessarily a problem (if a view is wrong, it's wrong whether one person or 1000 people hold it) but it's Israel/Palestine... people get so angry and use rhetoric about 'zionists' that sounds ugly - at least, if one remembers the term applies to most of the world's jews.
- relaxing 2y ago
  No one said that though, not in this thread. And I’ve given you stats that say you’re wrong.
  - thomassmith65 2y ago
    Those stats seem correct. It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism. The point I was, a bit clumsily, trying to make in that part of my comment was that your stats, while correct, probably still leave most jews sympathetic to zionism. The reason I was nitpicky about that is that some Palestinian activists (apologies for implying I meant you) justify creepy uses of the term 'zionists' by casting doubt that it applies to most jews.
    - relaxing 2y ago