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I think people forget that Apple is not making devices for the Hackernews community. They are making devices for people that just want something that works pret

I think people forget that Apple is not making devices for the Hackernews community. They are making devices for people that just want something that works pretty well and has reasonable security - even to the extent of protecting them from themselves. They have other things to do with their time than learn about security vulnerabilities and how to avoid them. They want to just click 'yes' on every popup and expect things to keep working. Because they know that they are not qualified to answer that yes/no popup question. And those people do not care much about lock-in and walled gardens. They are not interested in jailbreaking and sideloading apps. They've never heard of Pebble or have any interest in it. This is 90% of humanity, including people we all know and love. Apple serves these people pretty well.

zamadatix 2y ago
The post has a section regarding these concepts and why the author disagrees, why not respond to that directly instead? I tend to side somewhat with what the author is saying: they can be both relatively true statements and a way to abuse market power at the same time so identifying it as fitting the mold of one or the other is only the start of the conversation. People against the practices tend to care more about the latter and I think that's why we've seen the EU, Japan, and now Brazil regulate the behavior based on that rather than asking "what's Apple's target usage type".
- ketzo 2y ago
  > Apple claims their restrictions on competitors are only about security, privacy, crafting a better experience etc etc. At least that’s what they tell you as they tuck you into bed. Ah, yes, the author is clearly interested in an in-depth discussion of the tradeoffs in allowing 3rd-party users access to data that you tell your customers is 100% always encrypted.
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    The HN comments are for our discussion. If you choose to latch on to portions of initial posts or comments like the latter for swipes than that's the kind of discussion we get to have. If you choose to focus most of the discussion on other lines like: > I personally don’t agree - they’re clearly using their market power to lock consumers into their walled ecosystem. This causes there to be less competition, which increases prices and reduces innovation. DOJ seems to agree. instead then the quality of discussion here will match.
    - ketzo 2y ago
      Okay, I was being a little snarky. But that quoted portion doesn't really contradict my point; that is in no way an exploration of good reasons why Apple might want to make these choices.
      - zamadatix 2y ago
        It wasn't meant to contradict this point, Apple isn't supposed to want to be regulated by the DOJ.
sigmar 2y ago
Couldn't you make that argument for literally any anticompetitive practice? Like in the 1990s: "Microsoft isn't making an OS for people that want to try different browsers"
- liquid_thyme 2y ago
  Yes, you could. It's indeed troubling to see this mindset on HN. We have an overflow of professional "explainers" these days, we need more doers and fighters.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
    The "hackers" grew up and made money. Don't rock the boat!
  - frollogaston 2y ago
    If you want to do and fight, use Linux. Apple made their intentions clear decades ago.
    - _aavaa_ 2y ago
      Better than voting with your wallet is voting with your vote and getting regulations in place.
      - macrocosmos 2y ago
        You state that as if it is fact despite there being no evidence to support that viewpoint.
        frollogaston 2y ago
        Please don't "source?" this, it's just a viewpoint.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
liquid_thyme 2y ago
Whose side are you on exactly? I'm sure Apple doesn't need help amplifying their position.
that_guy_iain 2y ago
Apple are making devices for people who want things that look pretty. Functionality is generally not the major concern. Think about it. They are late with most new tech as they will just wait until it becomes cheaper, why? Because they already know it's not a deal breaker. They removed a bunch of fundamental and heavily used ports from the Macbook for years. Because they knew people would just work around it and buy dongles. They put the charging port for their wireless mouse on the bottom of the mouse so it wasn't possible to charge and use the mouse at the same time. Because they knew people would put up with it because it was pretty. For a lot of people, it's not that it works well or anything. It's about the brand and the design. It's about the marketing. And when it's about that and not the actual product you can do whatever you want to your product and it doesn't really matter. And compatibility with other brands doesn't matter because they've already bought into Apple's brand over everything else including basic functionality.
- frollogaston 2y ago
  I'm annoyed about the dongles, but that's about it. Macs work better.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - that_guy_iain 2y ago
    It all depends on what you're doing. For many on here, Macs are technically worse because they use docker and that means instead of just running docker and using the container functionality in the Linux kernel they have to virtualise a Linux VM to run docker in. If you're gaming it's not as good as Windows. Macs are ok, they do the job and in some areas they are better. But really, for most it doesn't matter, it's all about brand.
    - frollogaston 2y ago
      Docker is fine on Mac but still a small sliver of user base, and nobody is buying a Mac to play games. For all those other general uses, they're better, that's why they buy them. Battery lasts long, fan doesn't spin up, you don't get harassed by Windows, you don't deal with Linux Bluetooth drivers. Not for style. Apple Watch for style, sure. It's a watch after all. Not that it actually looks good.
efdee 2y ago
> They have other things to do with their time than learn about security vulnerabilities and how to avoid them. You're making that statement as if iPhones don't have security issues and people using Android definitely have to learn about those things. > They want to just click 'yes' on every popup and expect things to keep working. Because they know that they are not qualified to answer that yes/no popup question. And those people do not care much about lock-in and walled gardens. What exactly is it that Apple does that makes it not matter whether you click 'yes' or 'no' on these popups?
- alterom 2y ago
  To add: if the goal is to make a system where the yes/no answer is irrelevant, then it's a system when very horrible UX: the pop-up shouldn't be there in the first place! This also doesn't address the obvious solution: safe and easy defaults, and an option for manual overrides in advanced "I know what I'm doing" settings. And no pop-ups at all.
CivBase 2y ago
IMO, Apple's position as part of a duopoly disqualifies them that kind of defense. When customers aren't empowered to choose which company they engage with, companies should not be allowed to choose which customers they support.
- frollogaston 2y ago
  The customer has plenty of choice here, including just not having a smartwatch. It's a toy.
  - CivBase 2y ago
    Plenty of choice... so long as that choice has been approved by Apple. It's a very convenient position for a company with a competing product.
    - frollogaston 2y ago
      Apple doesn't approve of me not having an Apple Watch.
      - Osiris 2y ago
        Really? Did you have to pair your Apple watch? Did Apple sign the software on the watch? Did Apple build special APIs and tools into iOS to support certain features of the Apple Watch? Apple is demonstrating here that they can control every aspect of what you can do with your phone, including not allowing Pebble to work. Apple doesn't even allow you to replace broken parts in your phone unless it has an Apple approved signature that can be validated.
        frollogaston 2y ago
        I'm not sure what you mean, I don't have an Apple watch. Also idk what a Pebble is. > Apple doesn't even allow you to replace broken parts in your phone unless it has an Apple approved signature that can be validated. That's fine, I don't want to buy a used iPhone and find out it has random parts in it.
0xEF 2y ago
It's crazy that so many don't realize this. I am not an Apple user, likely never will be, but I recommend their tech frequently. They meet that market's needs with aplomb and I respect that.
SecretDreams 2y ago
> This is 90% of humanity, including people we all know and love. I'd say more like 95-99% of humanity tbh.
- senordevnyc 2y ago
  I’ve been a professional software engineer for 20 years and this is how I feel. And I’m an iOS engineer! I mostly want my phone to just work.
queuebert 2y ago
This is a false dichotomy. You can build a system that is secure by default but allows you to opt out with sufficient technical knowledge.
- _emacsomancer_ 2y ago
  Or also just have a corporation with enough technical knowledge themselves to work out security.... I suppose they figure it's not in their business interests though.
shantara 2y ago
We’re rapidly approaching the point where having a smartphone is becoming a necessity for being a functional part of the society. You could argue that is some countries we’re already past that point. A device of this social importance that’s also locked into one of the two American megacorps absolutely needs as much scrutiny as possible, since the interests of those megacorps are not aligned with the interests of the society. To give one example, Apple has removed an option for Airdrop file sharing between iPhones that are not on one another’s contact lists after the pressure from the Chinese government to stop it from being used for protests coordination. And yet this change was silently rolled out globally as a part of an iOS update. So, no, “Good enough for most people” is not actually good enough.
- nomel 2y ago
  This is somewhat false. It wasn't removed, it just takes intent now, and it has a timeout. I've been spammed by strangers with airdrop before, and have accidentally airdropped things to strangers. I enjoy the increased intent. But, gone are the fun days people spam airdropping funny "This is the captain" pictures to everyone while waiting for takeoff in an airplane.
- vv_ 2y ago
  > having a smartphone is becoming a necessity for being a functional part of the society This is correct, as in some countries, you use your phone to authenticate access to banking applications and payments (e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart-ID https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart-ID). However, I find it a bit of a stretch to claim that having iMessage access on a smartwatch is essential for being a functional member of society. Corporations will always take steps to ensure their profitability. Apple, for example, is incentivized to keep its systems locked down to maintain its ecosystem. There are likely other justifiable considerations behind these decisions. While laws exist to regulate what corporations can and cannot do, there should be a reasonable balance. That said, I don’t think this is a battle worth fighting - people can simply switch to an Android phone, which offers better support for a wider range of smartwatches.
  - NotPractical 2y ago
brailsafe 2y ago
iPhones are the Starbucks of phones. They were sort of novel and better than competition for a few years after launch maybe, became a status symbol, and then all the people who bought in stuck around while it became a bit old hat and uninteresting while paying the price that it was when it was still cool. If I want a capable rectangle, there are plenty of options now that are better and cheaper and more reliable. iOS and iPhones and just fine if you don't care, just like Starbucks is fine if you don't drink black coffee or have no options
- uni_baconcat 2y ago
  People cares, but not care that much. They care about privacy and freedom, so they have different opinions besides Apple. But they don’t care that much, so not everyone is trying to figure out if their phones have a hackable toggle.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
> And those people do not care much about lock-in and walled gardens. They are not interested in jailbreaking and sideloading apps. They've never heard of Pebble or have any interest in it. Customers are interested in new products and services that are good. This is how all currently popular products began, obviously. By preventing competitors from being good, as Apple and Microsoft and Amazon and other mega corporations regularly do, there’s no chance for competition to get to the point of attracting customers in the first place. Those people that you think are not interested in one thing or the other COULD want those things if they were allowed and easy to do without all these anti competitive practices.
Osiris 2y ago
Wouldn't "see my text messages on my watch" be included in "works pretty well?"
_emacsomancer_ 2y ago
People who don't read Hacker News occasionally want nice things too, and don't necessarily deserve corporations infantalising them.
nixpulvis 2y ago
Sub $200 smart-watches would be great for a lot of people.
- KennyBlanken 2y ago
  There are a bunch of them in the market already. You can also buy used/refurbished.
NotPractical 2y ago
> They want to just click 'yes' on every popup and expect things to keep working This is an extremely dangerous mindset, even if you never leave Apple's garden. As a reminder, Facebook and TikTok are on the App Store. We cannot encourage this zombie-like behavior and simultaneously have a healthy, free society. > Because they know that they are not qualified to answer that yes/no popup question Apple put thought into their permission system and made it easy to understand even among non-HN users, so that regular people can make meaningful choices about what information they want to share with apps and the companies who make them. There might as well be no permission system and no sandboxing at all if users are just going to spam the "yes" button all the time.
presentation 2y ago
I kind of agree - while I personally don't like to be treated like a dummy because I do feel like I know what I'm doing with tech, I wouldn't trust e.g. my parents with that power. If Apple wants to be the brand for the tech illiterate that's fine—the real problem is that their hardware (and to a lesser extent some of their software) is actually a lot better than the competition, especially every since the M1 CPU came out. So people like me and other HN denizens are left to hope that either some competitor actually becomes competitive; or Apple positions itself in such a way that they can simultaneously provide the "dummy mode" for dummies, and the "power mode" for people like me. For the latter option, they clearly don't want to do it, probably not because they don't trust power users to do power user things; but because leaning on the dummies for cover helps them protect their walled garden. Cue great frustration.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
rchaud 2y ago
Many people are mentally still in 1997, when Apple was the scrappy upstart against the Micro$oft goliath.
cryptoegorophy 2y ago
I thought this community is security over convenience? 12 years ago my iMessage got hacked. Someone was sending messages from my name to my relative. My password was secured and there were no ways I thought it would get hacked but there it is.
827a 2y ago
Apple Propaganda. There's extremely few reasons why a modern Android phone from Google or Samsung is less secure than an iPhone, against any attack vector that 99.sevennines% of people [1] would ever experience. The worst way I've ever seen the most tech-illiterate person ever mess up an Android phone is by installing some QR Code reader that took over as a home screen launcher so it could (nonmaliciously, but questionably) put its QR code reader as a home screen left of the app icons. It should be way harder for Play Store apps to do that, because this guy needed professional help (me) to figure out where his home screen layout went. But that was it. That's the worst I've ever seen. Android's security is very good. While not a security concern, I've had multiple iPhone users ask "what the heck is this screen to the right of my app icons" (referring to the App Library introduced ~2 years ago). One person thought they'd been hacked. Kind of a similar inconvenience vector as that QR code app. [1] The 100-99.sevenines% of people who might actually find themselves the target of an attack vector that Apple's unique security can help mitigate are, for example, journalists or dissidents who find value in Advanced Data Protection and Apple's generally very good and healthy stance on cloud security and end-to-end encryption. This level of security should be available to everyone, on every cloud provider, even if it only directly advantages a small number of people, but Apple is the only one really doing this right now.
- nunez 2y ago
  Replacing a launcher can be pretty bad. This happened to people I know. Some innocent sounding app replaced their launcher and added a fake Gmail widget to their home screen. It prompted them to login and, well, you know the rest. This would never happen on iOS because you can't change the launcher.
  - 827a 2y ago
    Agreed. Its my opinion that you should be able to replace the launcher on Android devices, but the Play Store should refuse to distribute apps that do this.
    - nunez 2y ago
      I really like this. People that know what they're doing can go nuts and sideload apks all day long, which is still more flexibility than you'll ever get with Apple. People that barely know how to use their phone outside of a few key apps will never have to worry about this attack vector.
cubefox 2y ago
> They are making devices for people that just want something that works pretty well and has reasonable security This statement doesn't make sense except if you are implying that Android doesn't have reasonable security despite not being a walled garden like iOS, and allowing e.g. interactions with smartwatches.
SergeAx 2y ago
> protecting [people] from themselves I finally understand what exactly I dislike in Apple. It's an authoritarian company.

zamadatix 2y ago

The post has a section regarding these concepts and why the author disagrees, why not respond to that directly instead? I tend to side somewhat with what the author is saying: they can be both relatively true statements and a way to abuse market power at the same time so identifying it as fitting the mold of one or the other is only the start of the conversation. People against the practices tend to care more about the latter and I think that's why we've seen the EU, Japan, and now Brazil regulate the behavior based on that rather than asking "what's Apple's target usage type".

ketzo 2y ago
> Apple claims their restrictions on competitors are only about security, privacy, crafting a better experience etc etc. At least that’s what they tell you as they tuck you into bed. Ah, yes, the author is clearly interested in an in-depth discussion of the tradeoffs in allowing 3rd-party users access to data that you tell your customers is 100% always encrypted.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  The HN comments are for our discussion. If you choose to latch on to portions of initial posts or comments like the latter for swipes than that's the kind of discussion we get to have. If you choose to focus most of the discussion on other lines like: > I personally don’t agree - they’re clearly using their market power to lock consumers into their walled ecosystem. This causes there to be less competition, which increases prices and reduces innovation. DOJ seems to agree. instead then the quality of discussion here will match.
  - ketzo 2y ago
    Okay, I was being a little snarky. But that quoted portion doesn't really contradict my point; that is in no way an exploration of good reasons why Apple might want to make these choices.
    - zamadatix 2y ago
      It wasn't meant to contradict this point, Apple isn't supposed to want to be regulated by the DOJ.

sigmar 2y ago

Couldn't you make that argument for literally any anticompetitive practice? Like in the 1990s: "Microsoft isn't making an OS for people that want to try different browsers"

liquid_thyme 2y ago
Yes, you could. It's indeed troubling to see this mindset on HN. We have an overflow of professional "explainers" these days, we need more doers and fighters.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  The "hackers" grew up and made money. Don't rock the boat!
- frollogaston 2y ago
  If you want to do and fight, use Linux. Apple made their intentions clear decades ago.
  - _aavaa_ 2y ago
    Better than voting with your wallet is voting with your vote and getting regulations in place.
    - macrocosmos 2y ago
      You state that as if it is fact despite there being no evidence to support that viewpoint.
      - frollogaston 2y ago
        Please don't "source?" this, it's just a viewpoint.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

liquid_thyme 2y ago

Whose side are you on exactly? I'm sure Apple doesn't need help amplifying their position.

that_guy_iain 2y ago

Apple are making devices for people who want things that look pretty. Functionality is generally not the major concern. Think about it. They are late with most new tech as they will just wait until it becomes cheaper, why? Because they already know it's not a deal breaker. They removed a bunch of fundamental and heavily used ports from the Macbook for years. Because they knew people would just work around it and buy dongles. They put the charging port for their wireless mouse on the bottom of the mouse so it wasn't possible to charge and use the mouse at the same time. Because they knew people would put up with it because it was pretty. For a lot of people, it's not that it works well or anything. It's about the brand and the design. It's about the marketing. And when it's about that and not the actual product you can do whatever you want to your product and it doesn't really matter. And compatibility with other brands doesn't matter because they've already bought into Apple's brand over everything else including basic functionality.

frollogaston 2y ago
I'm annoyed about the dongles, but that's about it. Macs work better.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- that_guy_iain 2y ago
  It all depends on what you're doing. For many on here, Macs are technically worse because they use docker and that means instead of just running docker and using the container functionality in the Linux kernel they have to virtualise a Linux VM to run docker in. If you're gaming it's not as good as Windows. Macs are ok, they do the job and in some areas they are better. But really, for most it doesn't matter, it's all about brand.
  - frollogaston 2y ago
    Docker is fine on Mac but still a small sliver of user base, and nobody is buying a Mac to play games. For all those other general uses, they're better, that's why they buy them. Battery lasts long, fan doesn't spin up, you don't get harassed by Windows, you don't deal with Linux Bluetooth drivers. Not for style. Apple Watch for style, sure. It's a watch after all. Not that it actually looks good.

efdee 2y ago

> They have other things to do with their time than learn about security vulnerabilities and how to avoid them. You're making that statement as if iPhones don't have security issues and people using Android definitely have to learn about those things. > They want to just click 'yes' on every popup and expect things to keep working. Because they know that they are not qualified to answer that yes/no popup question. And those people do not care much about lock-in and walled gardens. What exactly is it that Apple does that makes it not matter whether you click 'yes' or 'no' on these popups?

alterom 2y ago
To add: if the goal is to make a system where the yes/no answer is irrelevant, then it's a system when very horrible UX: the pop-up shouldn't be there in the first place! This also doesn't address the obvious solution: safe and easy defaults, and an option for manual overrides in advanced "I know what I'm doing" settings. And no pop-ups at all.

CivBase 2y ago

IMO, Apple's position as part of a duopoly disqualifies them that kind of defense. When customers aren't empowered to choose which company they engage with, companies should not be allowed to choose which customers they support.

frollogaston 2y ago
The customer has plenty of choice here, including just not having a smartwatch. It's a toy.
- CivBase 2y ago
  Plenty of choice... so long as that choice has been approved by Apple. It's a very convenient position for a company with a competing product.
  - frollogaston 2y ago
    Apple doesn't approve of me not having an Apple Watch.
    - Osiris 2y ago
      Really? Did you have to pair your Apple watch? Did Apple sign the software on the watch? Did Apple build special APIs and tools into iOS to support certain features of the Apple Watch? Apple is demonstrating here that they can control every aspect of what you can do with your phone, including not allowing Pebble to work. Apple doesn't even allow you to replace broken parts in your phone unless it has an Apple approved signature that can be validated.
      - frollogaston 2y ago
        I'm not sure what you mean, I don't have an Apple watch. Also idk what a Pebble is. > Apple doesn't even allow you to replace broken parts in your phone unless it has an Apple approved signature that can be validated. That's fine, I don't want to buy a used iPhone and find out it has random parts in it.

0xEF 2y ago

It's crazy that so many don't realize this. I am not an Apple user, likely never will be, but I recommend their tech frequently. They meet that market's needs with aplomb and I respect that.

SecretDreams 2y ago

> This is 90% of humanity, including people we all know and love. I'd say more like 95-99% of humanity tbh.

senordevnyc 2y ago
I’ve been a professional software engineer for 20 years and this is how I feel. And I’m an iOS engineer! I mostly want my phone to just work.

queuebert 2y ago

This is a false dichotomy. You can build a system that is secure by default but allows you to opt out with sufficient technical knowledge.

_emacsomancer_ 2y ago
Or also just have a corporation with enough technical knowledge themselves to work out security.... I suppose they figure it's not in their business interests though.

shantara 2y ago

We’re rapidly approaching the point where having a smartphone is becoming a necessity for being a functional part of the society. You could argue that is some countries we’re already past that point. A device of this social importance that’s also locked into one of the two American megacorps absolutely needs as much scrutiny as possible, since the interests of those megacorps are not aligned with the interests of the society. To give one example, Apple has removed an option for Airdrop file sharing between iPhones that are not on one another’s contact lists after the pressure from the Chinese government to stop it from being used for protests coordination. And yet this change was silently rolled out globally as a part of an iOS update. So, no, “Good enough for most people” is not actually good enough.

nomel 2y ago
This is somewhat false. It wasn't removed, it just takes intent now, and it has a timeout. I've been spammed by strangers with airdrop before, and have accidentally airdropped things to strangers. I enjoy the increased intent. But, gone are the fun days people spam airdropping funny "This is the captain" pictures to everyone while waiting for takeoff in an airplane.
vv_ 2y ago
> having a smartphone is becoming a necessity for being a functional part of the society This is correct, as in some countries, you use your phone to authenticate access to banking applications and payments (e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart-ID https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart-ID). However, I find it a bit of a stretch to claim that having iMessage access on a smartwatch is essential for being a functional member of society. Corporations will always take steps to ensure their profitability. Apple, for example, is incentivized to keep its systems locked down to maintain its ecosystem. There are likely other justifiable considerations behind these decisions. While laws exist to regulate what corporations can and cannot do, there should be a reasonable balance. That said, I don’t think this is a battle worth fighting - people can simply switch to an Android phone, which offers better support for a wider range of smartwatches.
- NotPractical 2y ago

brailsafe 2y ago

iPhones are the Starbucks of phones. They were sort of novel and better than competition for a few years after launch maybe, became a status symbol, and then all the people who bought in stuck around while it became a bit old hat and uninteresting while paying the price that it was when it was still cool. If I want a capable rectangle, there are plenty of options now that are better and cheaper and more reliable. iOS and iPhones and just fine if you don't care, just like Starbucks is fine if you don't drink black coffee or have no options

uni_baconcat 2y ago
People cares, but not care that much. They care about privacy and freedom, so they have different opinions besides Apple. But they don’t care that much, so not everyone is trying to figure out if their phones have a hackable toggle.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

> And those people do not care much about lock-in and walled gardens. They are not interested in jailbreaking and sideloading apps. They've never heard of Pebble or have any interest in it. Customers are interested in new products and services that are good. This is how all currently popular products began, obviously. By preventing competitors from being good, as Apple and Microsoft and Amazon and other mega corporations regularly do, there’s no chance for competition to get to the point of attracting customers in the first place. Those people that you think are not interested in one thing or the other COULD want those things if they were allowed and easy to do without all these anti competitive practices.

Osiris 2y ago

Wouldn't "see my text messages on my watch" be included in "works pretty well?"

_emacsomancer_ 2y ago

People who don't read Hacker News occasionally want nice things too, and don't necessarily deserve corporations infantalising them.

nixpulvis 2y ago

Sub $200 smart-watches would be great for a lot of people.

KennyBlanken 2y ago
There are a bunch of them in the market already. You can also buy used/refurbished.

NotPractical 2y ago

> They want to just click 'yes' on every popup and expect things to keep working This is an extremely dangerous mindset, even if you never leave Apple's garden. As a reminder, Facebook and TikTok are on the App Store. We cannot encourage this zombie-like behavior and simultaneously have a healthy, free society. > Because they know that they are not qualified to answer that yes/no popup question Apple put thought into their permission system and made it easy to understand even among non-HN users, so that regular people can make meaningful choices about what information they want to share with apps and the companies who make them. There might as well be no permission system and no sandboxing at all if users are just going to spam the "yes" button all the time.

presentation 2y ago

I kind of agree - while I personally don't like to be treated like a dummy because I do feel like I know what I'm doing with tech, I wouldn't trust e.g. my parents with that power. If Apple wants to be the brand for the tech illiterate that's fine—the real problem is that their hardware (and to a lesser extent some of their software) is actually a lot better than the competition, especially every since the M1 CPU came out. So people like me and other HN denizens are left to hope that either some competitor actually becomes competitive; or Apple positions itself in such a way that they can simultaneously provide the "dummy mode" for dummies, and the "power mode" for people like me. For the latter option, they clearly don't want to do it, probably not because they don't trust power users to do power user things; but because leaning on the dummies for cover helps them protect their walled garden. Cue great frustration.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

rchaud 2y ago

Many people are mentally still in 1997, when Apple was the scrappy upstart against the Micro$oft goliath.

cryptoegorophy 2y ago

I thought this community is security over convenience? 12 years ago my iMessage got hacked. Someone was sending messages from my name to my relative. My password was secured and there were no ways I thought it would get hacked but there it is.

827a 2y ago

Apple Propaganda. There's extremely few reasons why a modern Android phone from Google or Samsung is less secure than an iPhone, against any attack vector that 99.sevennines% of people [1] would ever experience. The worst way I've ever seen the most tech-illiterate person ever mess up an Android phone is by installing some QR Code reader that took over as a home screen launcher so it could (nonmaliciously, but questionably) put its QR code reader as a home screen left of the app icons. It should be way harder for Play Store apps to do that, because this guy needed professional help (me) to figure out where his home screen layout went. But that was it. That's the worst I've ever seen. Android's security is very good. While not a security concern, I've had multiple iPhone users ask "what the heck is this screen to the right of my app icons" (referring to the App Library introduced ~2 years ago). One person thought they'd been hacked. Kind of a similar inconvenience vector as that QR code app. [1] The 100-99.sevenines% of people who might actually find themselves the target of an attack vector that Apple's unique security can help mitigate are, for example, journalists or dissidents who find value in Advanced Data Protection and Apple's generally very good and healthy stance on cloud security and end-to-end encryption. This level of security should be available to everyone, on every cloud provider, even if it only directly advantages a small number of people, but Apple is the only one really doing this right now.

nunez 2y ago
Replacing a launcher can be pretty bad. This happened to people I know. Some innocent sounding app replaced their launcher and added a fake Gmail widget to their home screen. It prompted them to login and, well, you know the rest. This would never happen on iOS because you can't change the launcher.
- 827a 2y ago
  Agreed. Its my opinion that you should be able to replace the launcher on Android devices, but the Play Store should refuse to distribute apps that do this.
  - nunez 2y ago
    I really like this. People that know what they're doing can go nuts and sideload apks all day long, which is still more flexibility than you'll ever get with Apple. People that barely know how to use their phone outside of a few key apps will never have to worry about this attack vector.

cubefox 2y ago

> They are making devices for people that just want something that works pretty well and has reasonable security This statement doesn't make sense except if you are implying that Android doesn't have reasonable security despite not being a walled garden like iOS, and allowing e.g. interactions with smartwatches.

SergeAx 2y ago

> protecting [people] from themselves I finally understand what exactly I dislike in Apple. It's an authoritarian company.