25 ms·

It sounds like you object to the premise of the study itself, rather than its findings. I'm not really sure what to say on that point. I can tell you that I cu

by radlad 2y ago

It sounds like you object to the premise of the study itself, rather than its findings. I'm not really sure what to say on that point. I can tell you that I currently have a Beagle-Border Collie (50/50 per two DNA tests) mix that is incredibly energetic and intelligent, and was very easy to train. She doesn't love strangers, but she is not aggressive towards them. While she looks very much like a Beagle, she has a temperament resembling that of a Border Collie: meaning she can be let off-leash and doesn't run off following smells, and she looks to me constantly for her next move, taking to training extremely well. While many Beagles are also easily trained, they have a reputation for being stubborn and very few can be let off leash. On the other hand, BCs are known for sticking close to their handlers. However, like a Beagle, she will stuff her face until she pukes given the chance. These are well-documented traits of these breeds. When I interact with other BC's (or related breeds, like Australian Shepherds) and Beagles they behave very similarly. I'm not sure why you're resistant to the idea that breeds have different temperaments.

belorn 2y ago
To take Border Collie, common behavior issues are jumping (which can cause issues with children or vulnerable), Anxiety (common with females) which can lead to aggression, strong herding instinct which can also lead to situation of perceived aggression, higher than normal need for mental stimulation that can lead to property destruction, and nipping behavior which is a form of unprovoked biting of humans (Usually towards the face, hands or arms). All those are well documented traits of Border Collies and could be used to describe a violent breed, and yet for most people who has owned one (like me), would find each of those very unfair description of what it actually means to own such breed. They are well known issues, especially if the dog is not handled correctly, and is a reason why they sadly often end up being sold or sent to a shelter when inexperienced dog owners fail to provide the necessary training and stimulation that a Border Collie usually need, resulting in unwanted behavior. Does that mean the temperament of Border Collie is that of aggressiveness? No. Does it mean they can't be near children? No. Their temperament can look like aggression from the outside but they are generally not aggressive. They are however a breed that is not recommended to inexperienced owners.
- radlad 2y ago
  Honestly, it sounds like we are in agreement except that I don't find those descriptions to be unfair, and I'm not sure why you would, after stating them yourself. They are common behavioral traits of the breed. Some breeds carry higher risks than others, due to both size / strength and temperament. This is the reason you suggest experienced owners.
  - belorn 2y ago
    A Border Collie is not high risk. A Border Collie with an inexperienced owner can be, depending on the individuality of the dog. The behavior of a dog, any dog, are always the combination of breed, individual trait, and the owner. All three contribute to the potential of risk, with the biggest emphasis on the owner. It is why when a dog attacks, blame is put on the owner. When a horse kills a child, we would put the blame on the parents or handler. Horses size and temperament do make horses potentially very dangerous, much more than any dog, but we view that high potential risk in the context of the individual traits and the owner. It makes little sense to view it in isolation. A Border Collie with the common know issues of Border Collies goes against the breed standard of Border Collies. That may look like a contradiction. However, the good traits that the breed standard looks for may increase the difficulty of handling, but the breed standard do not look for the negative traits.
    - radlad 2y ago
      Your first two sentences mostly sounds like a semantic argument to me. While I agree not all dogs within a breed are high risk (especially after quality training and while under the care of an experienced handler), I would say that if the breed exhibits a higher rate of "dangerous" traits, I would consider the breed to be higher risk than others. I agree handlers are and should be responsible for their animals' behavior - but I also don't believe you can fully control any animal. Like us they are sentient and have free will. I also believe that generally a breed/dog's "negative traits" (your term) are the flip side of their positive traits: herding -> nipping, scent hound -> runs off, high energy (work dog) / looks to humans for direction -> anxious / clingy, etc. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

by radlad 2y ago

belorn 2y ago

To take Border Collie, common behavior issues are jumping (which can cause issues with children or vulnerable), Anxiety (common with females) which can lead to aggression, strong herding instinct which can also lead to situation of perceived aggression, higher than normal need for mental stimulation that can lead to property destruction, and nipping behavior which is a form of unprovoked biting of humans (Usually towards the face, hands or arms). All those are well documented traits of Border Collies and could be used to describe a violent breed, and yet for most people who has owned one (like me), would find each of those very unfair description of what it actually means to own such breed. They are well known issues, especially if the dog is not handled correctly, and is a reason why they sadly often end up being sold or sent to a shelter when inexperienced dog owners fail to provide the necessary training and stimulation that a Border Collie usually need, resulting in unwanted behavior. Does that mean the temperament of Border Collie is that of aggressiveness? No. Does it mean they can't be near children? No. Their temperament can look like aggression from the outside but they are generally not aggressive. They are however a breed that is not recommended to inexperienced owners.

radlad 2y ago
Honestly, it sounds like we are in agreement except that I don't find those descriptions to be unfair, and I'm not sure why you would, after stating them yourself. They are common behavioral traits of the breed. Some breeds carry higher risks than others, due to both size / strength and temperament. This is the reason you suggest experienced owners.
- belorn 2y ago
  A Border Collie is not high risk. A Border Collie with an inexperienced owner can be, depending on the individuality of the dog. The behavior of a dog, any dog, are always the combination of breed, individual trait, and the owner. All three contribute to the potential of risk, with the biggest emphasis on the owner. It is why when a dog attacks, blame is put on the owner. When a horse kills a child, we would put the blame on the parents or handler. Horses size and temperament do make horses potentially very dangerous, much more than any dog, but we view that high potential risk in the context of the individual traits and the owner. It makes little sense to view it in isolation. A Border Collie with the common know issues of Border Collies goes against the breed standard of Border Collies. That may look like a contradiction. However, the good traits that the breed standard looks for may increase the difficulty of handling, but the breed standard do not look for the negative traits.
  - radlad 2y ago
    Your first two sentences mostly sounds like a semantic argument to me. While I agree not all dogs within a breed are high risk (especially after quality training and while under the care of an experienced handler), I would say that if the breed exhibits a higher rate of "dangerous" traits, I would consider the breed to be higher risk than others. I agree handlers are and should be responsible for their animals' behavior - but I also don't believe you can fully control any animal. Like us they are sentient and have free will. I also believe that generally a breed/dog's "negative traits" (your term) are the flip side of their positive traits: herding -> nipping, scent hound -> runs off, high energy (work dog) / looks to humans for direction -> anxious / clingy, etc. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing your perspective.