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In Israel, a "normal civilian" sees the Sde Teiman video and thinks "those soldiers are heroes".

by tdeck 2y ago

shilgapira 2y ago
Would you have written the same sentence only with "China" and "Tiananmen Square"? It's really interesting to see these small mask-off moments when relatively veteran HN users allow themselves to indulge in such obvious bigotry as this comment. Weird how you only really see this happening when the post has some relation to the Jewish state.
- tdeck 2y ago
  Nothing you wrote actually refutes my point that these people not only escaped consequences, but they were protected by rioters and then becane celebrities in the Israeli late night circuit. Remind me which other countries had a debate in their parliament about whether it was OK to gang r*ape a prisoner in the rectum and send them to the hospital? When countries commit atrocities like that it's normal for there to be backlash. Apparently it's a mask off moment to notice these things? Or maybe you should examine why you think they're normal.
  - gryzzly 2y ago
    Did you dig deep into what Syrian regime did to Syrians? What about Russian atrocities? Not to mention Sudan. Maybe you were defending Yezidis? I doubt you ever mentioned any war crimes in any of these conflicts.
    - cess11 2y ago
      The israeli impunity has likely made Russia more ruthless in Ukraine, with for example attacks on hospitals. Sudan is an interesting example to bring up, since the RSF is closely connected with Israel's friends in the UAE, and the UAE has recently asked the US to help them avoid responsibility for what they've done. The Assad regime clinged to power in part in the way it did because it was what Israel preferred, israeli elites have been very afraid of what would follow the fall of Assad, which is likely why they've bombed Syria more or less constantly since then and occupies a large portion of the country. In the West many people believe the Assad dynasty to have been a clean iranian asset, but this isn't true. Bashar had good relations with security services in many other countries, and was one recipient of people collected by the US for torture during the so called War on Terror. Besides Beirut and possibly Amman it's likely Damascus was the most important spy hub in the region. The fate of Syria is an enormous tragedy, that could likely have been avoided.
      - gryzzly 2y ago
        as I assumed, any evil in the world is because of jews (and their "friends") in your eyes. Was it also the jews who made Russia ruthless in Chechnya? How about Gulag? Must have been Israel’s fault! And what about the Khmer Rouge? I’m sure you will find a jewish trace there. Thanks for clarifying, but be aware your hate is always transparent to some.
        cess11 2y ago
        To understand this reaction it might be a good idea to watch this Yoav Shamir documentary from 2009, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTAjc1OSrmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTAjc1OSrmY . It is antisemitic to equate 'the jews' with zionism and the state of Israel.
        gryzzly 2y ago
        plurality of opinion is a wonderful thing, but one fringe position doesn’t make a person right or the authority on a subject. Self reflection is great, and also is greatly missing from how you describe the palestinians. The palestinians don’t have agency in your view, and are only victims which is simply not the case. The fact the jews are free to speak what they think (unlike majority of palestinians) is great, however one jew’s opinion doesn’t deny the opinion of majority of jews – that’s pretty easy. And your accusations of genocide and hateful intent on the side of all israelis (including these who go to IDF to protect their families), and claims of "shooting children" intentionally are all simply showing the fact that you are an antisemite, and majority of jews will feel the same way, no matter how many exceptions, Finkelsteins, or Shamirs you will find.
        cess11 2y ago
        Why do you think he only interviews one person? Now you've just picked an hasbara template at random.
weatherlite 2y ago
I don't know if it's true but I do know for sure America has killed at least 100x more civilians than Israel has in wars that were in no way needed or existential (Vietnam, Iraq x2) and yet no one on his right mind would demonize ordinary Americans and imply they are all bloodthirsty Nazis to be persecuted everywhere they step on earth.
- tdeck 2y ago
  > I don't know if it's true There are polls about this that you could easily look up. Is your position that if most Israelis affirmatively support atrocities like this, the rest of the world should just pretend like we never saw that? > America has killed at least 100x more civilians than Israel has These aren't mutually exclusive. Israel is one of America's proxies. I'd support the international community putting sanctions on the US to put a stop to these things, but unfortunately it's not likely to happen because the US is the world's largest superpower and controls the global reserve currency, so it can operate with a degree of impunity. Is that a good situation, that you want to replicate around the world? > no one on his right mind would demonize ordinary Americans When the overwhelming majority of a country supports committing atrocities, it's not "demonizing" them to point that out. > to be persecuted everywhere they step on earth. Apparently it's "persecution" when people say that enthusiastically participating in a genocidal ethno-state's secret police means your company shouldn't get 32 billion dollars.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    > Is your position that if most Israelis affirmatively support atrocities like this, the rest of the world should just pretend like we never saw that? If the world should generalize over entire populations groups according to some poll then it should at least be consistent and not do it only to Israelis. If I find a poll that shows most Palestinians support October 7th would you immediately denounce every Gazan you talk to? It's also quite obvious many Gazans agreed not only with October 7th but also with the subsequent treatment of the Israeli hostages (which is a type of long lasting torture). Most of these hostages were/are simply kidnapped civilians, the ones you talk about in Sdei Teiman were most likely Hamas fighters connected to extreme cases of violence and terrorism. So there's more nuance here than you make it out to be. I personally think if anyone sexually abused them they should be thrown in jail but I can see why many Israelis have their hearts filled with hatred toward Hamas fighters. It's the job of the state to maintain rule of law.

In Israel, a "normal civilian" sees the Sde Teiman video and thinks "those soldiers are heroes".

by tdeck 2y ago

In Israel, a "normal civilian" sees the Sde Teiman video and thinks "those soldiers are heroes".

Would you have written the same sentence only with "China" and "Tiananmen Square"? It's really interesting to see these small mask-off moments when relatively veteran HN users allow themselves to indulge in such obvious bigotry as this comment. Weird how you only really see this happening when the post has some relation to the Jewish state.

tdeck 2y ago
Nothing you wrote actually refutes my point that these people not only escaped consequences, but they were protected by rioters and then becane celebrities in the Israeli late night circuit. Remind me which other countries had a debate in their parliament about whether it was OK to gang r*ape a prisoner in the rectum and send them to the hospital? When countries commit atrocities like that it's normal for there to be backlash. Apparently it's a mask off moment to notice these things? Or maybe you should examine why you think they're normal.
- gryzzly 2y ago
  Did you dig deep into what Syrian regime did to Syrians? What about Russian atrocities? Not to mention Sudan. Maybe you were defending Yezidis? I doubt you ever mentioned any war crimes in any of these conflicts.
  - cess11 2y ago
    The israeli impunity has likely made Russia more ruthless in Ukraine, with for example attacks on hospitals. Sudan is an interesting example to bring up, since the RSF is closely connected with Israel's friends in the UAE, and the UAE has recently asked the US to help them avoid responsibility for what they've done. The Assad regime clinged to power in part in the way it did because it was what Israel preferred, israeli elites have been very afraid of what would follow the fall of Assad, which is likely why they've bombed Syria more or less constantly since then and occupies a large portion of the country. In the West many people believe the Assad dynasty to have been a clean iranian asset, but this isn't true. Bashar had good relations with security services in many other countries, and was one recipient of people collected by the US for torture during the so called War on Terror. Besides Beirut and possibly Amman it's likely Damascus was the most important spy hub in the region. The fate of Syria is an enormous tragedy, that could likely have been avoided.
    - gryzzly 2y ago
      as I assumed, any evil in the world is because of jews (and their "friends") in your eyes. Was it also the jews who made Russia ruthless in Chechnya? How about Gulag? Must have been Israel’s fault! And what about the Khmer Rouge? I’m sure you will find a jewish trace there. Thanks for clarifying, but be aware your hate is always transparent to some.
      - cess11 2y ago
        To understand this reaction it might be a good idea to watch this Yoav Shamir documentary from 2009, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTAjc1OSrmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTAjc1OSrmY . It is antisemitic to equate 'the jews' with zionism and the state of Israel.
        gryzzly 2y ago
        plurality of opinion is a wonderful thing, but one fringe position doesn’t make a person right or the authority on a subject. Self reflection is great, and also is greatly missing from how you describe the palestinians. The palestinians don’t have agency in your view, and are only victims which is simply not the case. The fact the jews are free to speak what they think (unlike majority of palestinians) is great, however one jew’s opinion doesn’t deny the opinion of majority of jews – that’s pretty easy. And your accusations of genocide and hateful intent on the side of all israelis (including these who go to IDF to protect their families), and claims of "shooting children" intentionally are all simply showing the fact that you are an antisemite, and majority of jews will feel the same way, no matter how many exceptions, Finkelsteins, or Shamirs you will find.
        cess11 2y ago
        Why do you think he only interviews one person? Now you've just picked an hasbara template at random.

weatherlite 2y ago

I don't know if it's true but I do know for sure America has killed at least 100x more civilians than Israel has in wars that were in no way needed or existential (Vietnam, Iraq x2) and yet no one on his right mind would demonize ordinary Americans and imply they are all bloodthirsty Nazis to be persecuted everywhere they step on earth.

tdeck 2y ago
> I don't know if it's true There are polls about this that you could easily look up. Is your position that if most Israelis affirmatively support atrocities like this, the rest of the world should just pretend like we never saw that? > America has killed at least 100x more civilians than Israel has These aren't mutually exclusive. Israel is one of America's proxies. I'd support the international community putting sanctions on the US to put a stop to these things, but unfortunately it's not likely to happen because the US is the world's largest superpower and controls the global reserve currency, so it can operate with a degree of impunity. Is that a good situation, that you want to replicate around the world? > no one on his right mind would demonize ordinary Americans When the overwhelming majority of a country supports committing atrocities, it's not "demonizing" them to point that out. > to be persecuted everywhere they step on earth. Apparently it's "persecution" when people say that enthusiastically participating in a genocidal ethno-state's secret police means your company shouldn't get 32 billion dollars.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  > Is your position that if most Israelis affirmatively support atrocities like this, the rest of the world should just pretend like we never saw that? If the world should generalize over entire populations groups according to some poll then it should at least be consistent and not do it only to Israelis. If I find a poll that shows most Palestinians support October 7th would you immediately denounce every Gazan you talk to? It's also quite obvious many Gazans agreed not only with October 7th but also with the subsequent treatment of the Israeli hostages (which is a type of long lasting torture). Most of these hostages were/are simply kidnapped civilians, the ones you talk about in Sdei Teiman were most likely Hamas fighters connected to extreme cases of violence and terrorism. So there's more nuance here than you make it out to be. I personally think if anyone sexually abused them they should be thrown in jail but I can see why many Israelis have their hearts filled with hatred toward Hamas fighters. It's the job of the state to maintain rule of law.