3 ms·

This is certainly the way to win next elections.. If someone is really concerned about so-called fascism I don't think smashing VW Beetle windows in 1935 would

by gedy 2y ago

This is certainly the way to win next elections.. If someone is really concerned about so-called fascism I don't think smashing VW Beetle windows in 1935 would've helped anything - in fact it would've just made things worse.

rafram 2y ago
It seems unlikely that Democratic Party election strategists are behind this random BS site.
- gedy 2y ago
  I agree, I'm commenting on the passionate types who (mis)direct their energies on stunts like this.
- ivewonyoung 2y ago
  None of them will even lightly condemn even arson and property damage so its wink wink nudge nudge.
lvass 2y ago
Now that you mention it, this type of escalation is exactly what the president would hope for if his goal is some form of the Enabling Act.
krapp 2y ago
I don't believe the horrors of Nazi Germany would have been made worse if people smashed the windows of VW Beetles. And besides, if someone turns to fascism just to piss off the anti-fascists who smashed their car windows, then it was never about the car windows, they're just looking for an excuse.
anigbrowl 2y ago
VW Beetles were not produced until 1938, but I get your point. What don't get is your idea that things would have been worse. Worse how? Within a few years the nazis were beheading people for distributing postcards critical of the regime. It's equally arguable that they might not have got as far as they did if people had been more willing to stand up to them in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_and_Elise_Hampel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_and_Elise_Hampel
- gedy 2y ago
  My point was mainly that causing chaos for the regular citizen/voter tends to drive them into supporting the opposite party, especially if they are promising safety and stability. Even the Nazis had to consider what their citizens were willing to put up with, so targeting everyday people with stunts like this would just undermine support for any viable opposition. "Worse" just meant having more unconditional support even earlier - that couldn't do a good thing. Graffiting a Telsa may make the vandalizer feel good, but it doesn't win votes for the opposition.
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    How often are totalitarian regimes defeated by voting, though? The problem with this mindset is that people can use it to talk themselves out of ever doing anything, which is the ideal environment for totalitarianism. Unpleasant as these tactics are, they seem to be effective in achieving their goal of cratering Tesla sales.
    - gedy 2y ago
      > they seem to be effective in achieving their goal of cratering Tesla sales. I just don't think that ultimately wins elections, hearts, or minds.
      - anigbrowl 2y ago
        Why are historical events like the Boston Tea Party celebrated then? After all the tea merchants were innocent and did not impose the tax upon the American colonists, they were just shrewd negotiators who managed to carve out an exemption for themselves. Or as a more recent example, look at the January 6 2021 protests. Trump supporters quite literally stormed the national legislature; although a lot of the rank and file ended up in prison, none of the organizers even faced charges, and 4 years later Trump regained office, in part based on his promise to pardon all the J6 defendants (which he subsequently did). Now one could argue about what proportion of hearts and minds hold him in affection by comparing various opinion polls, but the reality is that he holds power and is wielding it like it's going out of fashion. So while I agree with you that it's an unlikeable tactic (the more so when it impacts individual consumers; I don't much care about the dealerships), I disagree about its longer-term effectiveness. There's a lot of evidence pointing to the conclusion that violating norms frequently pays off. Protests that go out of their way not to offend or inconvenience anyone may attract some sympathy but seem to yield little in the way of results.
nebula8804 2y ago
The only thing that matters is the economy. January 6 happened and the bozos still voted him back in office. If a crash happens or DOGE really f things up then they are done.

by gedy 2y ago

rafram 2y ago

It seems unlikely that Democratic Party election strategists are behind this random BS site.

gedy 2y ago
I agree, I'm commenting on the passionate types who (mis)direct their energies on stunts like this.
ivewonyoung 2y ago
None of them will even lightly condemn even arson and property damage so its wink wink nudge nudge.

lvass 2y ago

Now that you mention it, this type of escalation is exactly what the president would hope for if his goal is some form of the Enabling Act.

krapp 2y ago

I don't believe the horrors of Nazi Germany would have been made worse if people smashed the windows of VW Beetles. And besides, if someone turns to fascism just to piss off the anti-fascists who smashed their car windows, then it was never about the car windows, they're just looking for an excuse.

anigbrowl 2y ago

VW Beetles were not produced until 1938, but I get your point. What don't get is your idea that things would have been worse. Worse how? Within a few years the nazis were beheading people for distributing postcards critical of the regime. It's equally arguable that they might not have got as far as they did if people had been more willing to stand up to them in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_and_Elise_Hampel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_and_Elise_Hampel

gedy 2y ago
My point was mainly that causing chaos for the regular citizen/voter tends to drive them into supporting the opposite party, especially if they are promising safety and stability. Even the Nazis had to consider what their citizens were willing to put up with, so targeting everyday people with stunts like this would just undermine support for any viable opposition. "Worse" just meant having more unconditional support even earlier - that couldn't do a good thing. Graffiting a Telsa may make the vandalizer feel good, but it doesn't win votes for the opposition.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  How often are totalitarian regimes defeated by voting, though? The problem with this mindset is that people can use it to talk themselves out of ever doing anything, which is the ideal environment for totalitarianism. Unpleasant as these tactics are, they seem to be effective in achieving their goal of cratering Tesla sales.
  - gedy 2y ago
    > they seem to be effective in achieving their goal of cratering Tesla sales. I just don't think that ultimately wins elections, hearts, or minds.
    - anigbrowl 2y ago
      Why are historical events like the Boston Tea Party celebrated then? After all the tea merchants were innocent and did not impose the tax upon the American colonists, they were just shrewd negotiators who managed to carve out an exemption for themselves. Or as a more recent example, look at the January 6 2021 protests. Trump supporters quite literally stormed the national legislature; although a lot of the rank and file ended up in prison, none of the organizers even faced charges, and 4 years later Trump regained office, in part based on his promise to pardon all the J6 defendants (which he subsequently did). Now one could argue about what proportion of hearts and minds hold him in affection by comparing various opinion polls, but the reality is that he holds power and is wielding it like it's going out of fashion. So while I agree with you that it's an unlikeable tactic (the more so when it impacts individual consumers; I don't much care about the dealerships), I disagree about its longer-term effectiveness. There's a lot of evidence pointing to the conclusion that violating norms frequently pays off. Protests that go out of their way not to offend or inconvenience anyone may attract some sympathy but seem to yield little in the way of results.

nebula8804 2y ago

The only thing that matters is the economy. January 6 happened and the bozos still voted him back in office. If a crash happens or DOGE really f things up then they are done.