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A shame that OP recommends Proton. The fact they don't support open email protocols like IMAP/SMTP without an extremely frustrating proxy setup is what ultimate

A shame that OP recommends Proton. The fact they don't support open email protocols like IMAP/SMTP without an extremely frustrating proxy setup is what ultimately turned me away from their service. Being able to "just" use a native mail client is pretty much a must. The vendor lock-in from something like Proton feels way worse as a result. Can't speak to Proton Pass, but it strikes me as a replacement that seems unnecessary: if Bitwarden is a problem, the server can be selfhosted, something which the OP seems to be familiar with. Some of the others feel of more... questionable issues to have with US cloud services; it's hard to find problems with Dockerhub and NPM that aren't just general problems with these services/the company behind them (mainly NPM). Maybe that's just because the public/private concern for both of those services is pretty different than the others mentioned here.

wkat4242 2y ago
Yes I'm not a fan of Proton either. Especially because they hammer so much on their "Encryption" thing while 95% of the mails you get will come unencrypted from one of the big tech parties, Google, Microsoft, Amazon. So what is the point, really? And because of this indeed it is very hard to connect to it. Email is just dead as a tech. It's no surprise nobody uses it for sensitive content anymore but instead just uses it as a notification service ("Please log in to our portal to read your message"). I don't personally like bitwarden either because it uses a master password, I prefer "pass" which encrypts each password with your GPG key (which can be stored on a yubikey for hardware security). But yeah self hosted bitwarden is a good option too and very popular.
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  > It's no surprise nobody uses it for sensitive content anymore I get password reset links for pretty much every website on email. Few things as sensitive as that. I also receive and send documents, signed or for signing, with pretty sensitive information, over email. I agree it shouldn't be used for those but it certainly still is.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    There's so many organisations moving away from it though. Email password recovery yes. But really, what does Proton's E2EE add to this? The email is still sent unencrypted across the internet. And only gets encrypted when it gets to their mailbox. It's not as if someone could easily break into gmail either. Unless they know your password but then Proton is just as vulnerable. I just consider their "Security" window dressing to be honest. It totally ignores the gaping wide problem and fixes only a tiny pretty irrelevant part of it.
    - cassianoleal 2y ago
      I agree. My comment was not related to Proton in any way, only as a counter to the idea that e-mail is on the way out. Yes, there are companies and services getting away from it but there's still a lot of sensitive information flowing through it.
    - andrewaylett 2y ago
      Many emails aren't sent unencrypted any more — just not E2E encrypted. It's harder to stop an active MITM from downgrading the connection, but the bulk of non-spam messages to my server come in with TLS. And while it's not going to be possible for most people, I have pinned most of my larger destinations to require TLS with a suitable certificate, so I can have confidence that my outbound email won't transit the Internet unencrypted. Obviously if you're a client of a big hosting service that you don't trust then E2E has value. But that's not the whole problem, or the whole solution.
    - whyoh 2y ago
      Encryption at rest is still worth something. >It's not as if someone could easily break into gmail either. Unless they know your password... Google employees, the NSA, hackers, ... they can all break into your Gmail without knowing your password.
- upofadown 2y ago
  >Email is just dead as a tech. It's really the only game in town for messaging. Like sure, there are a zillion incompatible alternative systems out there but email is the only system with worldwide adoption. ... and its federated. ... and it actually works somewhat reliably. ... and it's actually fairly secure these days, using a network of trusted email servers. Like sure, it would be great if we could make end to end encryption usable for regular people for the email case. It would also be equally great if we could make E2EE usable for regular people for all the other cases.
sneak 2y ago
Yeah, I was a Protonmail evangelist but their mobile app sucks and their client software has nonconsensual surveillance embedded in it that you have to remember to turn off.
ptsneves 2y ago
I am migrating away from Proton. In theory they check all marks, in practice they fail in delivering baseline functionality in all categories. 1. The Web interface email is so-so, but the proxy email bridge is really heavy and takes a huge amount of disk space. It also makes my computer start flying from time to time. The iOS email client(very important as they dont support standard protocols) is just useless. The text is rendered like an image which I need to pinch to zoom in and slide across the text. There is no way for the font size to be increased to a legible amount. The images in attachment are not in a carroussel so I need to open1/close1/open2/close2/open3/close3 if there are 3 attached images. In an email client this is absolutely basic. 2. ProtonDrive: It took a long while before rclone was supported and for their web client to be working, "ok". Anyway it is basically unusable as a backup cloud service because it takes forever to encrypt in the browser. I just gave up and have no idea what is the state of sync of my files there. I just moved to backblaze and am waiting for my Proton subscription to expire. 3. ProtonVPN: Good on paper, totally untrusted and blocked by the internet. I can't navigate without filling 10 captchas or just be outright blocked. 4. ProtonCalendar is proprietary and not compatible with generic tools in iOS or linux or Android. I gave up trying their other services as I just expect them to be as incomplete. I mean: Email is the thing that needs to work right and every time I need to see some email together with my wife I feel like this goofy person that complicates what for everyone else is one of the most basic tasks in using a computer. If I could I would just cancel and ask my money back, unfortunately they do not do that.
- pmdr 2y ago
  > 3. ProtonVPN: Good on paper, totally untrusted and blocked by the internet. I can't navigate without filling 10 captchas or just be outright blocked. Even residential IPs are being blocked nowadays, we have Cloudflare to thank for that.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    Yes! I run Firefox on Linux and I constantly get captcha'd everywhere (by that typical cloudflare loading page) because I'm not part of the 95% that runs Windows or Mac. Cloudflare is an awful thing for the internet.
CER10TY 2y ago
What's a good alternative to Proton? Still haven't migrated my business away from Google Workspace, and I was thinking Proton would be a good alternative, but apparently not if they don't even support IMAP/SMTP.
- hovering_nox 2y ago
  https://tuta.com/ https://tuta.com/
  - bodash 2y ago
    Second Tuta. Their feature list might be limited when compared to Proton or Fastmail, but their core email service is solid.
  - attendant3446 2y ago
    It's an alternative to Proton because it doesn't support open standards (like IMAP), but it has the same problem - vendor lock-in.
- chgs 2y ago
  I use Zoho for my personal email. They aren’t European but they aren’t American. Crucially though it’s easy enough to migrate to another provider of self just by updating my mx records.
  - SSLy 2y ago
    context: Zoho is incorporated in US and made in India.
  - crossroadsguy 2y ago
    Note - Zoho is from the country I live in. You ought to expect nought privacy from here, or maybe even negative (yeah, that can be a thing :D).
- carschno 2y ago
  Mailbox looks very solid, although I don't have long-term experience: https://mailbox.org https://mailbox.org It provides email, online storage, video conferencing, calendar etc., all of it privacy-preserving by default. You explicitly don't have to provide any personal details.
cedws 2y ago
How would you support E2E without the proxy? Not that the majority of people’s emails are truly E2E anyway on Proton, but still.
- blitzar 2y ago
  Decryption / encryption in email client. If (more) email clients handled this you wouldn't need protonmail.
  - cedws 2y ago
    Ok but are you going to send a petition to Apple or what? How are you going to practically solve this problem without a proxy?
max_ 2y ago
Why is IMAP/SMTP so important? What exactly are people missing out on by Proton not having this support?
- nottorp 2y ago
  Our choice of email client. Scripts that automatically pull emails and archive them locally or process them in some way.
Tubbe 2y ago
Also the CEO is praising the current Republican administration https://x.com/andyyen/status/1864436449942110660 https://x.com/andyyen/status/1864436449942110660
- 9283409232 2y ago
  You're looking at this in black and white. The CEO praised one of the administrations picks for being tough on big tech. While I think he's wrong in his statement on who stands for "the little guys" praising one pick for her stance on big tech does not mean he wholly supports the administration and it's actions.
  - archagon 2y ago
    “Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”
    - 9283409232 2y ago
      Not all things require an equal reaction. Someone saying "this pick has a good track record" doesn't require the same level of drama as if he had said everything this administration does is awesome.
JohnTHaller 2y ago
I'm looking at new email providers and the inability to use Thunderbird on Windows and Android is why I ruled out Proton.

wkat4242 2y ago

Yes I'm not a fan of Proton either. Especially because they hammer so much on their "Encryption" thing while 95% of the mails you get will come unencrypted from one of the big tech parties, Google, Microsoft, Amazon. So what is the point, really? And because of this indeed it is very hard to connect to it. Email is just dead as a tech. It's no surprise nobody uses it for sensitive content anymore but instead just uses it as a notification service ("Please log in to our portal to read your message"). I don't personally like bitwarden either because it uses a master password, I prefer "pass" which encrypts each password with your GPG key (which can be stored on a yubikey for hardware security). But yeah self hosted bitwarden is a good option too and very popular.

cassianoleal 2y ago
> It's no surprise nobody uses it for sensitive content anymore I get password reset links for pretty much every website on email. Few things as sensitive as that. I also receive and send documents, signed or for signing, with pretty sensitive information, over email. I agree it shouldn't be used for those but it certainly still is.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  There's so many organisations moving away from it though. Email password recovery yes. But really, what does Proton's E2EE add to this? The email is still sent unencrypted across the internet. And only gets encrypted when it gets to their mailbox. It's not as if someone could easily break into gmail either. Unless they know your password but then Proton is just as vulnerable. I just consider their "Security" window dressing to be honest. It totally ignores the gaping wide problem and fixes only a tiny pretty irrelevant part of it.
  - cassianoleal 2y ago
    I agree. My comment was not related to Proton in any way, only as a counter to the idea that e-mail is on the way out. Yes, there are companies and services getting away from it but there's still a lot of sensitive information flowing through it.
  - andrewaylett 2y ago
    Many emails aren't sent unencrypted any more — just not E2E encrypted. It's harder to stop an active MITM from downgrading the connection, but the bulk of non-spam messages to my server come in with TLS. And while it's not going to be possible for most people, I have pinned most of my larger destinations to require TLS with a suitable certificate, so I can have confidence that my outbound email won't transit the Internet unencrypted. Obviously if you're a client of a big hosting service that you don't trust then E2E has value. But that's not the whole problem, or the whole solution.
  - whyoh 2y ago
    Encryption at rest is still worth something. >It's not as if someone could easily break into gmail either. Unless they know your password... Google employees, the NSA, hackers, ... they can all break into your Gmail without knowing your password.
upofadown 2y ago
>Email is just dead as a tech. It's really the only game in town for messaging. Like sure, there are a zillion incompatible alternative systems out there but email is the only system with worldwide adoption. ... and its federated. ... and it actually works somewhat reliably. ... and it's actually fairly secure these days, using a network of trusted email servers. Like sure, it would be great if we could make end to end encryption usable for regular people for the email case. It would also be equally great if we could make E2EE usable for regular people for all the other cases.

sneak 2y ago

Yeah, I was a Protonmail evangelist but their mobile app sucks and their client software has nonconsensual surveillance embedded in it that you have to remember to turn off.

ptsneves 2y ago

I am migrating away from Proton. In theory they check all marks, in practice they fail in delivering baseline functionality in all categories. 1. The Web interface email is so-so, but the proxy email bridge is really heavy and takes a huge amount of disk space. It also makes my computer start flying from time to time. The iOS email client(very important as they dont support standard protocols) is just useless. The text is rendered like an image which I need to pinch to zoom in and slide across the text. There is no way for the font size to be increased to a legible amount. The images in attachment are not in a carroussel so I need to open1/close1/open2/close2/open3/close3 if there are 3 attached images. In an email client this is absolutely basic. 2. ProtonDrive: It took a long while before rclone was supported and for their web client to be working, "ok". Anyway it is basically unusable as a backup cloud service because it takes forever to encrypt in the browser. I just gave up and have no idea what is the state of sync of my files there. I just moved to backblaze and am waiting for my Proton subscription to expire. 3. ProtonVPN: Good on paper, totally untrusted and blocked by the internet. I can't navigate without filling 10 captchas or just be outright blocked. 4. ProtonCalendar is proprietary and not compatible with generic tools in iOS or linux or Android. I gave up trying their other services as I just expect them to be as incomplete. I mean: Email is the thing that needs to work right and every time I need to see some email together with my wife I feel like this goofy person that complicates what for everyone else is one of the most basic tasks in using a computer. If I could I would just cancel and ask my money back, unfortunately they do not do that.

pmdr 2y ago
> 3. ProtonVPN: Good on paper, totally untrusted and blocked by the internet. I can't navigate without filling 10 captchas or just be outright blocked. Even residential IPs are being blocked nowadays, we have Cloudflare to thank for that.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  Yes! I run Firefox on Linux and I constantly get captcha'd everywhere (by that typical cloudflare loading page) because I'm not part of the 95% that runs Windows or Mac. Cloudflare is an awful thing for the internet.

CER10TY 2y ago

What's a good alternative to Proton? Still haven't migrated my business away from Google Workspace, and I was thinking Proton would be a good alternative, but apparently not if they don't even support IMAP/SMTP.

hovering_nox 2y ago
https://tuta.com/ https://tuta.com/
- bodash 2y ago
  Second Tuta. Their feature list might be limited when compared to Proton or Fastmail, but their core email service is solid.
- attendant3446 2y ago
  It's an alternative to Proton because it doesn't support open standards (like IMAP), but it has the same problem - vendor lock-in.
chgs 2y ago
I use Zoho for my personal email. They aren’t European but they aren’t American. Crucially though it’s easy enough to migrate to another provider of self just by updating my mx records.
- SSLy 2y ago
  context: Zoho is incorporated in US and made in India.
- crossroadsguy 2y ago
  Note - Zoho is from the country I live in. You ought to expect nought privacy from here, or maybe even negative (yeah, that can be a thing :D).
carschno 2y ago
Mailbox looks very solid, although I don't have long-term experience: https://mailbox.org https://mailbox.org It provides email, online storage, video conferencing, calendar etc., all of it privacy-preserving by default. You explicitly don't have to provide any personal details.

cedws 2y ago

How would you support E2E without the proxy? Not that the majority of people’s emails are truly E2E anyway on Proton, but still.

blitzar 2y ago
Decryption / encryption in email client. If (more) email clients handled this you wouldn't need protonmail.
- cedws 2y ago
  Ok but are you going to send a petition to Apple or what? How are you going to practically solve this problem without a proxy?

max_ 2y ago

Why is IMAP/SMTP so important? What exactly are people missing out on by Proton not having this support?

nottorp 2y ago
Our choice of email client. Scripts that automatically pull emails and archive them locally or process them in some way.

Tubbe 2y ago

Also the CEO is praising the current Republican administration https://x.com/andyyen/status/1864436449942110660 https://x.com/andyyen/status/1864436449942110660

9283409232 2y ago
You're looking at this in black and white. The CEO praised one of the administrations picks for being tough on big tech. While I think he's wrong in his statement on who stands for "the little guys" praising one pick for her stance on big tech does not mean he wholly supports the administration and it's actions.
- archagon 2y ago
  “Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”
  - 9283409232 2y ago
    Not all things require an equal reaction. Someone saying "this pick has a good track record" doesn't require the same level of drama as if he had said everything this administration does is awesome.

JohnTHaller 2y ago

I'm looking at new email providers and the inability to use Thunderbird on Windows and Android is why I ruled out Proton.