6 ms·

Figuring out "bad management" is really a hard problem. The same problem exists in the government bureaucracies too.

CharlieDigital 2y ago
Incredibly hard. If there were some formula and it was really easy to just keep "the good ones", then every company would only have great managers. It's simply not that easy at scale.
- bb88 2y ago
  Listen to yourself. It's management's job to manage people. Some of those people are going to be managers. So management can't police themselves apparently? I don't buy it.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    Correct. It's fundamentally a problem that cannot be completely solved. People are too messy.
    - bb88 2y ago
      Then managers are only a salary line -- one that can go away apparently.
      - TulliusCicero 2y ago
        Not being completely solvable doesn't mean that giving up entirely is a better option. We don't stop all crime, but that doesn't mean we stop funding all police and jails.
- mirekrusin 2y ago
  Ask tech leads who consistently deliver value who's good one and who's not – you'll get pretty accurate picture.
  - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    If there's a clique or patronage, simply asking may not get you the real picture.
    - CharlieDigital 2y ago
      It's amazing how many smart people here think this is just a trivial problem that they can solve for big tech if big tech would only listen. This is a fundamental human organization problem that many countless organizations of people have failed to perform optimally since people have started organizing into groups.
      - bb88 2y ago
        Listen to yourself. That's what management is supposed to do: manage people -- including other managers. You can't both accept and deny responsibility in the same breath. If you truly believe that, then this is cognitive dissonance in it's highest form.
        CharlieDigital 2y ago
        There's what you imagine and what you can see with your own eyes in reality. Amazon, with its billions and hoards of smart people, still ended up in a situation where they find themselves in excess of 14,000 employees. It means that there's no simple formula and perhaps once in a while, orgs just need to clear the slate and see where the pain points are and build up once again.
        mirekrusin 2y ago
        Yes and the best people to ask who to trim are tech leads with track record of consistently delivering value. Their field of view spans from little guys at the bottom of the chain, through the essence of working product up to at least two levels of management. And they do have good judgement, if they didn't they wouldn't be able to consistently deliver value in the past.
whenc 2y ago
"Management is that for which there is no algorithm. If there's an algorithm, it's administration." (Maurice Wilkes, IIRC)
potato3732842 2y ago
All organizations. Nonprofits, militaries, religious orders, everything. And anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant or lying.
apple4ever 2y ago
It may be, but I've also found that very few companies try. Usually because bad management is in charge.

Incredibly hard. If there were some formula and it was really easy to just keep "the good ones", then every company would only have great managers. It's simply not that easy at scale.

bb88 2y ago
Listen to yourself. It's management's job to manage people. Some of those people are going to be managers. So management can't police themselves apparently? I don't buy it.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  Correct. It's fundamentally a problem that cannot be completely solved. People are too messy.
  - bb88 2y ago
    Then managers are only a salary line -- one that can go away apparently.
    - TulliusCicero 2y ago
      Not being completely solvable doesn't mean that giving up entirely is a better option. We don't stop all crime, but that doesn't mean we stop funding all police and jails.
mirekrusin 2y ago
Ask tech leads who consistently deliver value who's good one and who's not – you'll get pretty accurate picture.
- ThrowawayR2 2y ago
  If there's a clique or patronage, simply asking may not get you the real picture.
  - CharlieDigital 2y ago
    It's amazing how many smart people here think this is just a trivial problem that they can solve for big tech if big tech would only listen. This is a fundamental human organization problem that many countless organizations of people have failed to perform optimally since people have started organizing into groups.
    - bb88 2y ago
      Listen to yourself. That's what management is supposed to do: manage people -- including other managers. You can't both accept and deny responsibility in the same breath. If you truly believe that, then this is cognitive dissonance in it's highest form.
      - CharlieDigital 2y ago
        There's what you imagine and what you can see with your own eyes in reality. Amazon, with its billions and hoards of smart people, still ended up in a situation where they find themselves in excess of 14,000 employees. It means that there's no simple formula and perhaps once in a while, orgs just need to clear the slate and see where the pain points are and build up once again.
        mirekrusin 2y ago
        Yes and the best people to ask who to trim are tech leads with track record of consistently delivering value. Their field of view spans from little guys at the bottom of the chain, through the essence of working product up to at least two levels of management. And they do have good judgement, if they didn't they wouldn't be able to consistently deliver value in the past.

whenc 2y ago

"Management is that for which there is no algorithm. If there's an algorithm, it's administration." (Maurice Wilkes, IIRC)

potato3732842 2y ago

All organizations. Nonprofits, militaries, religious orders, everything. And anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant or lying.

apple4ever 2y ago

It may be, but I've also found that very few companies try. Usually because bad management is in charge.