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that's the definition of an incompetent / mediocre manager. Most organizations expect their employees and managers in poarticular to be "breaking doors", which

that's the definition of an incompetent / mediocre manager. Most organizations expect their employees and managers in poarticular to be "breaking doors", which is the opposite attitude to blindly following any internal process.

lovich 2y ago
You have a very warped view of the world if you think most companies, or even Amazon in particular, are expecting their employees to be “breaking doors”. They are literally mandating people come in to sit in a room on video calls with people sitting in a room in other offices all around the country/world. That’s the most egregious one, but add up all the controls, pair it with layoffs and threats of more, and you’re not going to end up with an employee base that’s testing the limits of what’s possible. You’ll end up with a well behaved herd of docile workers. They’re not going to change that behavior by getting rid of middle managers when those demands are coming from the C levels or the board
- ryandrake 2y ago
  To be fair, OP was talking about the companies' expectations, not the behavior they are incentivizing. Many companies expect their employees to innovate, while implementing processes that prevent innovation. Many companies expect their employees to "take courageous risks" while punishing risk-taking that goes wrong. Many companies expect their employees to "act like they are owners" while giving them no equity or profit sharing.
  - lovich 2y ago
    Ah yes, I do see that distinction. I was only talking about what they were _doing_, not what they _expected_
  - random3 2y ago
    Exactly. It is about expectations, and it is about inbalance. Every employee expects ideal benefits with minimal work, every emplyer expects ideal work with mininal benefits. The reality is balance here is one of very many possibilities with leverage being most of the times one one side, rather than in the middle. Complaining about the structure is like your sales complaining that your customers choose your competition's product - nobody cares.
- random3 2y ago
  You only need managers to the extent their actions can have an effect down the line. Otherwise they don't "manage" anything, hence they become communication brokers, potentially unnecessary. The reality is that in most cases that's the reality, but that doesn't make the reality the goal and, in fact, motivates these decisions. I think Gervais captures these dynamics the best https://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-principle/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-principle/
deleted 2y ago
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bdangubic 2y ago
this is same as saying soldiers in the military have the right to decide which orders they can disobey and which not
- random3 2y ago
  Almost - it's called "mission command" and the core idea is to prioritize initiative, flexibility, and independent judgment over strict adherence to orders’ exact wording. https://www.army.mil/article/106872/understanding_mission_command https://www.army.mil/article/106872/understanding_mission_co...

lovich 2y ago

You have a very warped view of the world if you think most companies, or even Amazon in particular, are expecting their employees to be “breaking doors”. They are literally mandating people come in to sit in a room on video calls with people sitting in a room in other offices all around the country/world. That’s the most egregious one, but add up all the controls, pair it with layoffs and threats of more, and you’re not going to end up with an employee base that’s testing the limits of what’s possible. You’ll end up with a well behaved herd of docile workers. They’re not going to change that behavior by getting rid of middle managers when those demands are coming from the C levels or the board

ryandrake 2y ago
To be fair, OP was talking about the companies' expectations, not the behavior they are incentivizing. Many companies expect their employees to innovate, while implementing processes that prevent innovation. Many companies expect their employees to "take courageous risks" while punishing risk-taking that goes wrong. Many companies expect their employees to "act like they are owners" while giving them no equity or profit sharing.
- lovich 2y ago
  Ah yes, I do see that distinction. I was only talking about what they were _doing_, not what they _expected_
- random3 2y ago
  Exactly. It is about expectations, and it is about inbalance. Every employee expects ideal benefits with minimal work, every emplyer expects ideal work with mininal benefits. The reality is balance here is one of very many possibilities with leverage being most of the times one one side, rather than in the middle. Complaining about the structure is like your sales complaining that your customers choose your competition's product - nobody cares.
random3 2y ago
You only need managers to the extent their actions can have an effect down the line. Otherwise they don't "manage" anything, hence they become communication brokers, potentially unnecessary. The reality is that in most cases that's the reality, but that doesn't make the reality the goal and, in fact, motivates these decisions. I think Gervais captures these dynamics the best https://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-principle/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-principle/

deleted 2y ago

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bdangubic 2y ago

this is same as saying soldiers in the military have the right to decide which orders they can disobey and which not

random3 2y ago
Almost - it's called "mission command" and the core idea is to prioritize initiative, flexibility, and independent judgment over strict adherence to orders’ exact wording. https://www.army.mil/article/106872/understanding_mission_command https://www.army.mil/article/106872/understanding_mission_co...