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Just to be clear about my bias: I think that the presidential pardon power is an affront to the idea of rule of law and shouldn't exist, no matter who the presi
by JohnFen 2y ago
Just to be clear about my bias: I think that the presidential pardon power is an affront to the idea of rule of law and shouldn't exist, no matter who the president is.
This is an interesting situation. If Trump can just make shit up and declare a previous president's pardons to be void, then a future president can do the same with Trump's pardons. This might, in fact, be a back door method of effectively neutralizing the presidential pardon.
- taylodl 2y agoPardons have been an integral part of English Common Law for over 1,000 years. The Framers of the Constitution didn't invent the concept out of thin air; they drew on a long-standing tradition of clemency to ensure justice and mercy within the legal system.
- uppost 2y agoAre pre-emptive blanket pardons traditional? I can see how Trump or some future president might abuse that, especially if autopen is allowed so that thousands or even tens of thousands can be pardoned at once to prevent subsequent political lawfare.
- taylodl 2y agoJimmy Carter issued a pre-emptive blanket pardon for the Vietnam War draft evaders, so precedence has been set.
- JohnFen 2y agoYes, I'm aware of the history. That history, in my mind, only underscores that the presidential pardon is a holdover of monarchical power that should have no role in a governmental system that is supposed to be based on the rule of law. > to ensure justice and mercy within the legal system. But it does no such thing. All it does is to make the ultimate arbiter of what counts as "justice" a single person. That is not a good thing and is not conducive to justice.
- timeon 2y agoPardons exists also in Civil Law.
- rsynnott 2y agoA _personal_ pardon power is a bit of an oddity these days, though; by the 19th century it was dead in the UK, say (George VI _attempted_ to use it, but at that point it was essentially a constitutional crisis, and he backed down).
- serf 2y ago>when a future president can do the same with Trump's pardons. the precedent set is the cancellation of autopen'd CNC'd signatures used during a presidency where many think the leader was mentally MIA. it's troublesome to consider a cabinet that short-circuited the president via CNC'd autopen signatures, even if you're against the Trump presidency.
- Jare 2y agoTrump just makes stuff up. What is troublesome is to grace anything Trump says with any measure of validity. He's always just trying to sow doubt on anyone or anything who doesn't support him.
- techpineapple 2y agoThen I guess this would mean we have to go back and review all - what - presidential proclamations, laws, executive orders done by autopen and void them?
- rsynnott 2y agoI mean, the next president could just claim that Trump’s hands were too small for proper signing or something; the details really hardly matter. It’s a complete nonsense anyway; if it stands up, then the US has itself a constitutional crisis.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoI’m not sure it neutralizes it for everyone. Dem staffers have mentioned how Biden was mentally declining for the last few years and that it was denied and covered up by the party leaders. There have been allegations that a few people close to him have basically run the last administration by using the auto pen instead of him. I’m not sure if that can ever be proven. But my point is I think this tactic of undoing pardons may be a thing specific to Biden’s situation.
- dialup_sounds 2y agoTrump "declared" them invalid "because of the fact that they were done by Autopen", which isn't specific to the pardons or to Biden at all.
- JohnFen 2y ago> I think this tactic of undoing pardons may be a thing specific to Biden’s situation. Why do you think this? It doesn't matter what the current administration thinks. If it sets the legal precedent that it can undo pardons by prior administrations based on little more than what the president thinks, then that power is also available to be used by future administrations based on their own opinions as well.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoI understand your point around precedent. My point is that Trump is not going to do something that removes the power of pardon from himself. I think the way they’re going to approach this is to frame it as a Biden specific problem with the pardons. It may end up requiring a court process, but it is possible that they will bring evidence forward to show that Biden was not really making these pardon decisions himself.
- JohnFen 2y ago> it is possible that they will bring evidence forward to show that Biden was not really making these pardon decisions himself. I seriously doubt this. If they had such evidence, they would have already presented it publicly for political purposes.