4 ms·

Trump Says Biden's Pardons Are 'Void' and 'Vacant' Because of Autopen

23 points by croes 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
perkele1989 2y ago
[flagged]
- NicoJuicy 2y ago
  More than 4, Trump is currently working on his second term and is more incoherent than Biden ever was. Ontopic: This is just plain bs of course. Nowhere is described how a pardon must happen, a president in the US can do it through words solely.
  - duxup 2y ago
    The complaints about Biden's cognitive abilities is so strange when it gets spammed, these folks must have never watched Trump's train of thought wander away in speeches before.
    - _ce5e 2y ago
      Not really sure if you're serious, but the night Trump was sworn in and took office, he talked for multiple hours straight, without a teleprompter (as always), with reason and a red thread through the entire thing. You may not agree with his policies, but to claim that his mental health is declining is ridiculous. OTOH, watching Biden spontaneously become a Roomba, walking away in arbitrary directions, always having his handlers with him, etc. is ultimately sad. I dont think people point it out to ridicule, I think it's a serious situation, especially given the fact that he was commander in chief for 4 years.
      - rsynnott 2y ago
        > "That's beautiful. This is a different panel...everything's computer! That's beautiful! Wow!" Yeah, not at all senile. Bigly coherent.
dave4420 2y ago
This is bullshit, US presidents have been signing laws etc by autopen for decades.
- finnthehuman 2y ago
  I've always been sus of the autopen. It's just authorized forgery. The times I've heard about it has been the president traveling, but in the age of printers and scanners, the autopen seems strictly worse. Coming home with the original wet-ink signature a week after sending a digital copy seems preferable to the "just trust me bro" method of delegating a signature there is no legal will to legislate a real delegation process for.
  - krapp 2y ago
    If it's authorized it can't be forgery.
    - kazinator 2y ago
      Right, but what if unauthorized happens? How do you distinguish authorized from unauthorized? Obviously, you can ask Biden: did he authorize such and such a document or not. This suspicion would only be a problem in the case of someone deceased.
      - dave4420 2y ago
        What do auto pens have to do with this? People have been forging signatures for centuries. The whole thing from Trump is bullshit. “Plausible justification” for those that want to believe.
    - Covzire 2y ago
      Can a senile old man authorize anything in a legal sense?
      - acdha 2y ago
JohnFen 2y ago
Just to be clear about my bias: I think that the presidential pardon power is an affront to the idea of rule of law and shouldn't exist, no matter who the president is. This is an interesting situation. If Trump can just make shit up and declare a previous president's pardons to be void, then a future president can do the same with Trump's pardons. This might, in fact, be a back door method of effectively neutralizing the presidential pardon.
- taylodl 2y ago
  Pardons have been an integral part of English Common Law for over 1,000 years. The Framers of the Constitution didn't invent the concept out of thin air; they drew on a long-standing tradition of clemency to ensure justice and mercy within the legal system.
  - uppost 2y ago
    Are pre-emptive blanket pardons traditional? I can see how Trump or some future president might abuse that, especially if autopen is allowed so that thousands or even tens of thousands can be pardoned at once to prevent subsequent political lawfare.
    - taylodl 2y ago
      Jimmy Carter issued a pre-emptive blanket pardon for the Vietnam War draft evaders, so precedence has been set.
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    Yes, I'm aware of the history. That history, in my mind, only underscores that the presidential pardon is a holdover of monarchical power that should have no role in a governmental system that is supposed to be based on the rule of law. > to ensure justice and mercy within the legal system. But it does no such thing. All it does is to make the ultimate arbiter of what counts as "justice" a single person. That is not a good thing and is not conducive to justice.
  - timeon 2y ago
duxup 2y ago
Trump's legal interpretations are always about him, not any sensible analysis. I'd like to see the system done away with. It doesn't make sense that buddies of the executive branch should be given special treatment... same goes for Trump & Co. It has gotten wild with preemptive pardons and so on. That's not equal protection under the law ... If the system was really a system where they reviewed exceptional cases of non connected folks and issued pardons I'd be ok with it, but it's not. Having said all that, this declaration seems to be the purview of the courts not the executive branch.
kazinator 2y ago
It's a poor bluff. Since Biden is still living, he could easily confirm what pardons he approved.
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  Trump has probably been getting regular updates about cementing his path to self pardon; and the working theory is that President Autopen should be treated as separate but bigly

23 points by croes 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

perkele1989 2y ago

[flagged]

NicoJuicy 2y ago
More than 4, Trump is currently working on his second term and is more incoherent than Biden ever was. Ontopic: This is just plain bs of course. Nowhere is described how a pardon must happen, a president in the US can do it through words solely.
- duxup 2y ago
  The complaints about Biden's cognitive abilities is so strange when it gets spammed, these folks must have never watched Trump's train of thought wander away in speeches before.
  - _ce5e 2y ago
    Not really sure if you're serious, but the night Trump was sworn in and took office, he talked for multiple hours straight, without a teleprompter (as always), with reason and a red thread through the entire thing. You may not agree with his policies, but to claim that his mental health is declining is ridiculous. OTOH, watching Biden spontaneously become a Roomba, walking away in arbitrary directions, always having his handlers with him, etc. is ultimately sad. I dont think people point it out to ridicule, I think it's a serious situation, especially given the fact that he was commander in chief for 4 years.
    - rsynnott 2y ago
      > "That's beautiful. This is a different panel...everything's computer! That's beautiful! Wow!" Yeah, not at all senile. Bigly coherent.

dave4420 2y ago

This is bullshit, US presidents have been signing laws etc by autopen for decades.

finnthehuman 2y ago
I've always been sus of the autopen. It's just authorized forgery. The times I've heard about it has been the president traveling, but in the age of printers and scanners, the autopen seems strictly worse. Coming home with the original wet-ink signature a week after sending a digital copy seems preferable to the "just trust me bro" method of delegating a signature there is no legal will to legislate a real delegation process for.
- krapp 2y ago
  If it's authorized it can't be forgery.
  - kazinator 2y ago
    Right, but what if unauthorized happens? How do you distinguish authorized from unauthorized? Obviously, you can ask Biden: did he authorize such and such a document or not. This suspicion would only be a problem in the case of someone deceased.
    - dave4420 2y ago
      What do auto pens have to do with this? People have been forging signatures for centuries. The whole thing from Trump is bullshit. “Plausible justification” for those that want to believe.
  - Covzire 2y ago
    Can a senile old man authorize anything in a legal sense?
    - acdha 2y ago

JohnFen 2y ago

Just to be clear about my bias: I think that the presidential pardon power is an affront to the idea of rule of law and shouldn't exist, no matter who the president is. This is an interesting situation. If Trump can just make shit up and declare a previous president's pardons to be void, then a future president can do the same with Trump's pardons. This might, in fact, be a back door method of effectively neutralizing the presidential pardon.

taylodl 2y ago
Pardons have been an integral part of English Common Law for over 1,000 years. The Framers of the Constitution didn't invent the concept out of thin air; they drew on a long-standing tradition of clemency to ensure justice and mercy within the legal system.
- uppost 2y ago
  Are pre-emptive blanket pardons traditional? I can see how Trump or some future president might abuse that, especially if autopen is allowed so that thousands or even tens of thousands can be pardoned at once to prevent subsequent political lawfare.
  - taylodl 2y ago
    Jimmy Carter issued a pre-emptive blanket pardon for the Vietnam War draft evaders, so precedence has been set.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  Yes, I'm aware of the history. That history, in my mind, only underscores that the presidential pardon is a holdover of monarchical power that should have no role in a governmental system that is supposed to be based on the rule of law. > to ensure justice and mercy within the legal system. But it does no such thing. All it does is to make the ultimate arbiter of what counts as "justice" a single person. That is not a good thing and is not conducive to justice.
- timeon 2y ago

duxup 2y ago

Trump's legal interpretations are always about him, not any sensible analysis. I'd like to see the system done away with. It doesn't make sense that buddies of the executive branch should be given special treatment... same goes for Trump & Co. It has gotten wild with preemptive pardons and so on. That's not equal protection under the law ... If the system was really a system where they reviewed exceptional cases of non connected folks and issued pardons I'd be ok with it, but it's not. Having said all that, this declaration seems to be the purview of the courts not the executive branch.

kazinator 2y ago

It's a poor bluff. Since Biden is still living, he could easily confirm what pardons he approved.

ttyprintk 2y ago
Trump has probably been getting regular updates about cementing his path to self pardon; and the working theory is that President Autopen should be treated as separate but bigly