3 ms·

Honest question. I've been looking both at iPads and Thinkpads for a device that I can carry around, sit in a cafe with, do some typing, watch videos, play game

Honest question. I've been looking both at iPads and Thinkpads for a device that I can carry around, sit in a cafe with, do some typing, watch videos, play games, etc. Both of these are powerful and capable on their own, but also have unique strengths: an iPad is truly lightweight and has great battery, a Thinkpad can be docked and used as a regular workstation, etc. Assuming I want the best value for my money, why would I choose a PINETAB over either of those? I truly believe in RISC-V, but right now it is hardly a selling point: <https://chimera-linux.org/news/2025/03/dropping-riscv.html https://chimera-linux.org/news/2025/03/dropping-riscv.html>

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
Most of the Pine64 range is designed for developers/tinkerers rather than end-users. This is great for people who want to play around with RISC-V hardware, but not so much for general users who'd be better off with a typical ARM powered tablet. Your link to Chimera Linux actually illustrates the point of this kind of product - a pinetab is a cheap way to get your hands on easily usable hardware and port your favourite distro or software to it. I'd also add that RISC-V performance isn't on par with ARM chips yet. The reason that manufacturers would want to use them has more to do with economics - no need to pay ARM for using their processors.
- rollcat 2y ago
  That's why I wonder, who is this device being sold to? I do understand why RISC-V appeals to enthusiasts - I've been eyeing a couple RISC-V SBCs to potentially add to my homelab - I just don't understand the form factor. I sure as hell wouldn't carry two tablet/laptop-sized devices with me. Doing systems work in-system is a recipe for bricking the device until you can carry it back home. Doing integration work is much more productive if you can play with a dozen different CSI or DSI peripherals, rather than being stuck with one of each. I linked Chimera specifically to point out they've been building/porting apps thru an emulator, since it was more performant and readily available. We've already ruled out using it for consuming media, and all but the most basic work. So what kind of hacker/enthusiast stuff can I actually do with this device specifically? It just looks like the worst of all worlds to me?
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    I'd consider a tablet to be a convenient form factor for people working with front-end tools (e.g. porting a browser to RISC-V etc) as they don't then need to find another spare power cable and a spare monitor to connect to an SBC. My view is that this is a step along the way to building RISC-V hardware for end-users. I'd guess that they chose this form-factor because they could build it relatively easily and at low cost. Their January blog post indicates that the PineNote is mainly usable: https://pine64.org/2025/01/11/january_2025/ https://pine64.org/2025/01/11/january_2025/
    - rollcat 2y ago
      > porting a browser to RISC-V Modern web browsers take several hours to compile on reasonably powerful hardware. (I don't know much about rebuilding for incremental changes. TBH I'm terrified of the scope to even try.) Also that sounds like an incredibly niche application? > [...] as they don't then need to find another spare power cable and a spare monitor to connect to an SBC. My own solution is to use an HDMI capture stick to display a window on my main workstation. Works great for kiosk-type applications, and I keep my regular setup for actual coding. I previously used the hardware PIP feature of my monitor, but it will often obscure another window. If I need KVM, and for devices that support that, I have a screen that does USB-C with DP, plus an internal USB hub to connect the keyboard and mouse. One cable to rule them all. I could probably get half a dozen USB-C/DP into HDMI+USB-A adapters but honestly swapping two cables instead of one is not that big of a deal. My screen has 4 HDMI inputs, regular DP, and USB-C/DP. I ended up using all of them ;) Plus you get to pick more powerful HW to actually support development - even a 20% improvement is big, and IIRC that was the difference between Jetson T210 and RasPi4; enough to do non-Jetson-specific builds on a different board.
      - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
        > Also that sounds like an incredibly niche application? This is a niche device, so yes it's designed for niche applications and also for people who want to play around with RISC-V hardware.
  - 2y ago
brucehoult 2y ago
I'm pleased to say that the Chimera folk persisted, got access to a $2500 64 core 128 GB RAM RISC-V workstation, the Milk-V Pioneer, and successfully built their distro from scratch in a reasonable time, and have reinstated RISC-V at the same level as LoongArch. Congratulations! https://chimera-linux.org/news/2025/03/new-riscv-server.html https://chimera-linux.org/news/2025/03/new-riscv-server.html

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago

Most of the Pine64 range is designed for developers/tinkerers rather than end-users. This is great for people who want to play around with RISC-V hardware, but not so much for general users who'd be better off with a typical ARM powered tablet. Your link to Chimera Linux actually illustrates the point of this kind of product - a pinetab is a cheap way to get your hands on easily usable hardware and port your favourite distro or software to it. I'd also add that RISC-V performance isn't on par with ARM chips yet. The reason that manufacturers would want to use them has more to do with economics - no need to pay ARM for using their processors.

rollcat 2y ago
That's why I wonder, who is this device being sold to? I do understand why RISC-V appeals to enthusiasts - I've been eyeing a couple RISC-V SBCs to potentially add to my homelab - I just don't understand the form factor. I sure as hell wouldn't carry two tablet/laptop-sized devices with me. Doing systems work in-system is a recipe for bricking the device until you can carry it back home. Doing integration work is much more productive if you can play with a dozen different CSI or DSI peripherals, rather than being stuck with one of each. I linked Chimera specifically to point out they've been building/porting apps thru an emulator, since it was more performant and readily available. We've already ruled out using it for consuming media, and all but the most basic work. So what kind of hacker/enthusiast stuff can I actually do with this device specifically? It just looks like the worst of all worlds to me?
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  I'd consider a tablet to be a convenient form factor for people working with front-end tools (e.g. porting a browser to RISC-V etc) as they don't then need to find another spare power cable and a spare monitor to connect to an SBC. My view is that this is a step along the way to building RISC-V hardware for end-users. I'd guess that they chose this form-factor because they could build it relatively easily and at low cost. Their January blog post indicates that the PineNote is mainly usable: https://pine64.org/2025/01/11/january_2025/ https://pine64.org/2025/01/11/january_2025/
  - rollcat 2y ago
    > porting a browser to RISC-V Modern web browsers take several hours to compile on reasonably powerful hardware. (I don't know much about rebuilding for incremental changes. TBH I'm terrified of the scope to even try.) Also that sounds like an incredibly niche application? > [...] as they don't then need to find another spare power cable and a spare monitor to connect to an SBC. My own solution is to use an HDMI capture stick to display a window on my main workstation. Works great for kiosk-type applications, and I keep my regular setup for actual coding. I previously used the hardware PIP feature of my monitor, but it will often obscure another window. If I need KVM, and for devices that support that, I have a screen that does USB-C with DP, plus an internal USB hub to connect the keyboard and mouse. One cable to rule them all. I could probably get half a dozen USB-C/DP into HDMI+USB-A adapters but honestly swapping two cables instead of one is not that big of a deal. My screen has 4 HDMI inputs, regular DP, and USB-C/DP. I ended up using all of them ;) Plus you get to pick more powerful HW to actually support development - even a 20% improvement is big, and IIRC that was the difference between Jetson T210 and RasPi4; enough to do non-Jetson-specific builds on a different board.
    - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
      > Also that sounds like an incredibly niche application? This is a niche device, so yes it's designed for niche applications and also for people who want to play around with RISC-V hardware.
- 2y ago

brucehoult 2y ago

I'm pleased to say that the Chimera folk persisted, got access to a $2500 64 core 128 GB RAM RISC-V workstation, the Milk-V Pioneer, and successfully built their distro from scratch in a reasonable time, and have reinstated RISC-V at the same level as LoongArch. Congratulations! https://chimera-linux.org/news/2025/03/new-riscv-server.html https://chimera-linux.org/news/2025/03/new-riscv-server.html