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So this finding is in the same vein as mathematicians who can't yet prove or disprove a conjecture, but can prove tighter restrictions than we knew before. Sti

So this finding is in the same vein as mathematicians who can't yet prove or disprove a conjecture, but can prove tighter restrictions than we knew before. Still interesting, and, more importantly, often productive of new paths or methods of analysis. As for the article itself, I'm not sold. The analysis was about narrowing down to find the most recent regional split in our genetics, with the assumption that language formed before humans split across regions. That would work if we assumed the capability to develop language rested largely on genetics. If a lot of animals could develop a language, then the explosion of human language could come from imitation when one regional group without a language meets another with a language. >"Human language is qualitatively different because there are two things, words and syntax, working together to create this very complex system," Miyagawa says. "No other animal has a parallel structure in their communication system. And that gives us the ability to generate very sophisticated thoughts and to communicate them to others." I have seen a lot of ideas about human mental exceptionalism fall apart. It wouldn't surprise me to find out in a few years that dolphins developed syntax.

ForTheKidz 2y ago
I think we already have decent evidence of animals having synytax. Presumably Miyagawa means something like recursive syntax.
- mannykannot 2y ago
  I agree - and some animals even have semantics, as evidenced by those which have some intuitive understanding of alarm calls, and even more so when they do so for the calls of other species. On the other hand, I doubt they know they have syntax and semantics.
  - gwervc 2y ago
    > On the other hand, I doubt they know they have syntax and semantics. A lot of humans probably ignore it too. Most don't even ever heard about phonology, which is more fundamental to language than syntax.
    - mcswell 2y ago
      Humans cannot ignore syntax or semantics, if that's what you're saying. Every human language has both, and no one can speak a language without knowing (usually implicitly) both. As for phonology, languages have that (even signed languages), but I don't see it as being more fundamental than syntax or semantics. Indeed, while some writing systems have something analogous to phonology (context-sensitive letter shapes, as in Arabic script, but also in Greek), some don't. And it's possible to learn written language without any spoken language--deaf people do that.

ForTheKidz 2y ago

I think we already have decent evidence of animals having synytax. Presumably Miyagawa means something like recursive syntax.

mannykannot 2y ago
I agree - and some animals even have semantics, as evidenced by those which have some intuitive understanding of alarm calls, and even more so when they do so for the calls of other species. On the other hand, I doubt they know they have syntax and semantics.
- gwervc 2y ago
  > On the other hand, I doubt they know they have syntax and semantics. A lot of humans probably ignore it too. Most don't even ever heard about phonology, which is more fundamental to language than syntax.
  - mcswell 2y ago
    Humans cannot ignore syntax or semantics, if that's what you're saying. Every human language has both, and no one can speak a language without knowing (usually implicitly) both. As for phonology, languages have that (even signed languages), but I don't see it as being more fundamental than syntax or semantics. Indeed, while some writing systems have something analogous to phonology (context-sensitive letter shapes, as in Arabic script, but also in Greek), some don't. And it's possible to learn written language without any spoken language--deaf people do that.