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What I find the most interesting is that to me at least it seems like there has been some strange inversion over the course of my adult life, where the same peo

What I find the most interesting is that to me at least it seems like there has been some strange inversion over the course of my adult life, where the same people that used to lament things like the COA VOA propaganda, warfare, instigating and stoking and orchestrating coups, subverting democratic elections, etc. are exactly the ones doing and supporting all those things they used to decry. I get the sense that I’ve just remained consistent in my views, but it still does not expiration things like how the same “liberals” who decried the invasion and corruption of Iraq, cheer on and demand limitless warfare and corrupted spending today on the likes of the Ukraine, while the “conservatives” want to stop wars and limit profligate spending and corruption. It’s upside down world, and terrifying to witness how quickly people can be manipulated to take directly contradictory positions.

krapp 2y ago
You're confusing "liberal" with "leftist," I suspect intentionally. Liberals supported the Iraq war. And the conservatives don't want to stop wars, they're literally the pro-war, pro military industrial complex party, and nothing they're doing is actually limiting profligate spending or corruption. Nice bit of propaganda and misidrection though. I can tell you worked hard on it.
symbolicAGI 2y ago
In the USA, Republicans build the military and Democrats wield it.
ckemere 2y ago
I don’t think this in quite fair. Since the time of Reagan, I think that liberals have consistently upheld the possibility of non-military government service being of value in contrast to the Reagan-ite generalization that only military service was generally honorable. (E.g., VOA, diplomatic service, DOJ)
01100011 2y ago
This. I was surprised to see the outrage over USAID, which up until now I had considered an arm of the CIA. Of course you are downvoted, because right now the progressive thing is to support these institutions and not question them. But this attitude used to be the domain of the left and so was seen differently. Now that the right is saying it, we have to downvote you. Edit: Some pre-2025 links: https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/04/03/cuban-twitter-and-other-times-usaid-pretended-to-be-an-intelligence-agency/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/04/03/cuban-twitter-and-other... https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/AA2RFE4CPSKBZ78P https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/AA2RFE4CPSKBZ78P https://mronline.org/2008/09/23/usaid-key-weapon-in-dirty-war-on-latin-america/ https://mronline.org/2008/09/23/usaid-key-weapon-in-dirty-wa... (from a socialist magazine, so take w/ a grain of salt) https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2004/11/coup-connection/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2004/11/coup-connection... Please do not be blinded by your well deserved distaste for trump. People calling for the ending of USAID are not all MAGA.
jmye 2y ago
> how the same “liberals” who decried the invasion and corruption of Iraq, cheer on and demand limitless warfare This is an absurdly dishonest take on Ukraine, and why “liberals” (or whatever you’re trying to say) support it. There isn’t a single, real, person who supports “war” above and beyond “Russia should stop invading and leave” and it is extremely difficult to believe that stating otherwise was done in good faith.
tm-infringement 2y ago
As someone from a country that's been the target of things like the VoA and much much worse. Ukraine isn't Iraq, this wasn't some dubious justification to preemptively attack. The gringo spooks were sure it wasn't gonna happen and were caught off guard, they didn't even give them advanced weaponry for a good while because they expected them to actually in fall in 3 days. Supporting Ukraine and being against interventionism isn't hypocritical. One only would see it like this if you flatten all context, opposing the Iraq wasn't flower-on-rifle pacisfism. The reasons for invasion were absurd, even if they weren't false. But to your greater point, there's two things happening here. First, the American liberal was never inherently anti-war, just not as enthusiastic for it when presented with flimsy justification (see post-WW2 history). To the amorphous gas of person who deeply identifies with the Democrat establishment, (i.e dreamed to be Hillary Clinton intern) the "tasteful" use of the intelligence apparatus is Good and Justified, simply stuff you Gotta Do, you know? Advancing freedom and all. The average D voter doesn't actually give a shit about foreign policy, they just are obligated to care when inevitably the weight of reality demonstrates that something impossibly stupid is happening. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan*. Anyone with two neurons will reactively want to stop it. Avoiding it is another matter, you have stop producing more Kissingers and change the environment and the people that give them power. A competent and independent leftist movement could do this, but any semblance of this was suppressed 'cuz dirty commies. So yeah, some liberals will genuinely shed a tear for the VoA for "freedom". Second, even if you hate the spooks and state propaganda like me, they are still useful. Not at good things, but it's nonetheless baffling to see someone put themselves at a disadvantage for no reason. The critiques are about strategy, not the morality of the outcome. Don't be fooled, this isn't an anti-intervention move or limiting spending by conservatives (how are those tax cuts going?). It's a rejection of the subtle and move to mafia style negotiation. Panama is not a joke, it's a promise. The leftists stayed small. The liberals are still apathetic. The conservatives metaphorically got rabies. [] One of the only times I've been impressed by Trump, he managed stuff the hot potato of the withdrawal in the mouth Biden, winning the good press while avoiding the blowback.

krapp 2y ago

You're confusing "liberal" with "leftist," I suspect intentionally. Liberals supported the Iraq war. And the conservatives don't want to stop wars, they're literally the pro-war, pro military industrial complex party, and nothing they're doing is actually limiting profligate spending or corruption. Nice bit of propaganda and misidrection though. I can tell you worked hard on it.

symbolicAGI 2y ago

In the USA, Republicans build the military and Democrats wield it.

ckemere 2y ago

I don’t think this in quite fair. Since the time of Reagan, I think that liberals have consistently upheld the possibility of non-military government service being of value in contrast to the Reagan-ite generalization that only military service was generally honorable. (E.g., VOA, diplomatic service, DOJ)

01100011 2y ago

This. I was surprised to see the outrage over USAID, which up until now I had considered an arm of the CIA. Of course you are downvoted, because right now the progressive thing is to support these institutions and not question them. But this attitude used to be the domain of the left and so was seen differently. Now that the right is saying it, we have to downvote you. Edit: Some pre-2025 links: https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/04/03/cuban-twitter-and-other-times-usaid-pretended-to-be-an-intelligence-agency/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/04/03/cuban-twitter-and-other... https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/AA2RFE4CPSKBZ78P https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/AA2RFE4CPSKBZ78P https://mronline.org/2008/09/23/usaid-key-weapon-in-dirty-war-on-latin-america/ https://mronline.org/2008/09/23/usaid-key-weapon-in-dirty-wa... (from a socialist magazine, so take w/ a grain of salt) https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2004/11/coup-connection/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2004/11/coup-connection... Please do not be blinded by your well deserved distaste for trump. People calling for the ending of USAID are not all MAGA.

jmye 2y ago

> how the same “liberals” who decried the invasion and corruption of Iraq, cheer on and demand limitless warfare This is an absurdly dishonest take on Ukraine, and why “liberals” (or whatever you’re trying to say) support it. There isn’t a single, real, person who supports “war” above and beyond “Russia should stop invading and leave” and it is extremely difficult to believe that stating otherwise was done in good faith.

tm-infringement 2y ago

As someone from a country that's been the target of things like the VoA and much much worse. Ukraine isn't Iraq, this wasn't some dubious justification to preemptively attack. The gringo spooks were sure it wasn't gonna happen and were caught off guard, they didn't even give them advanced weaponry for a good while because they expected them to actually in fall in 3 days. Supporting Ukraine and being against interventionism isn't hypocritical. One only would see it like this if you flatten all context, opposing the Iraq wasn't flower-on-rifle pacisfism. The reasons for invasion were absurd, even if they weren't false. But to your greater point, there's two things happening here. First, the American liberal was never inherently anti-war, just not as enthusiastic for it when presented with flimsy justification (see post-WW2 history). To the amorphous gas of person who deeply identifies with the Democrat establishment, (i.e dreamed to be Hillary Clinton intern) the "tasteful" use of the intelligence apparatus is Good and Justified, simply stuff you Gotta Do, you know? Advancing freedom and all. The average D voter doesn't actually give a shit about foreign policy, they just are obligated to care when inevitably the weight of reality demonstrates that something impossibly stupid is happening. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan*. Anyone with two neurons will reactively want to stop it. Avoiding it is another matter, you have stop producing more Kissingers and change the environment and the people that give them power. A competent and independent leftist movement could do this, but any semblance of this was suppressed 'cuz dirty commies. So yeah, some liberals will genuinely shed a tear for the VoA for "freedom". Second, even if you hate the spooks and state propaganda like me, they are still useful. Not at good things, but it's nonetheless baffling to see someone put themselves at a disadvantage for no reason. The critiques are about strategy, not the morality of the outcome. Don't be fooled, this isn't an anti-intervention move or limiting spending by conservatives (how are those tax cuts going?). It's a rejection of the subtle and move to mafia style negotiation. Panama is not a joke, it's a promise. The leftists stayed small. The liberals are still apathetic. The conservatives metaphorically got rabies. [] One of the only times I've been impressed by Trump, he managed stuff the hot potato of the withdrawal in the mouth Biden, winning the good press while avoiding the blowback.