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This is very impressive, amazing work! One question: how do you manage large code bases in scratch? Is it easy to find a piece of code? Something like grepping

by eliben 2y ago

This is very impressive, amazing work! One question: how do you manage large code bases in scratch? Is it easy to find a piece of code? Something like grepping for specific things seems difficult. I've recently been really warming up to Scratch since one of my kids picked it up and really enjoys it. I love the built-in concurrency model - it's a bit like CSP. Gets kids to think concurrently from day 1.

Rendello 2y ago
Scratch is not conducive to complex (traditional) projects, which I think is sort of the appeal for seasoned programmers. For my part, I woke up one weekend knowing I had to make a recursive bisection demo in it [1]. The effort I knew it would take vs the banality and lack of game play was really funny to me in an absurd way. Scratch lacks functions with return values, but if you hack global variables to be like registers, you can emulate them and even do recursion. At least that's how I did it. The Cartesian plane has (0,0) in the centre, which is annoying if you're used to traditional graphics. I have a young cousin who's intimidated by making the jump from Scratch into traditional game dev. I tell him that Scratch simplifies a lot of things, but it also makes a lot of things harder if you're used to regular programming. "Recursive Bisection on a Cartesian Plane in the Horizontal and Vertical Axes." (hold shift when you press "go" for fast mode): https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/1098438053 https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/1098438053
- jgwil2 2y ago
  That's really clever, bravo.
- ashater 2y ago
  My younger daughter, who is pretty good at making games in Scratch is not that interested in jumping into text/code based programming. I do think Scratch makes things a lot easier and text based programming is not thar appealing to kids. I will try to start her with Pygame but even that might make it seem very arcane and not very visual.
  - hdjrudni 2y ago
    Maybe try something with instant feedback? I'm not sure what precisely, but I'm picturing a split view with text on the left and the output on the right. I do this in web dev, React + hot reload is wonderful. For games, I've done it with instantly recompiling shaders but not much else.
  - Rendello 2y ago
    PICO-8 [1] might be a good choice. I always consider that kids want their friends to try their games, and so being able to easily distribute to the web is awesome. They can link their game from the site [2], or with some parental help they could even serve them from their own website, which could be very empowering for a kid. 1. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php 2. https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?cat=7&carts_tab=1&#sub=2&mode=carts https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?cat=7&carts_tab=1&#sub=2&mod...
    - sen 2y ago
      Another vote for Pico-8. It’s such an incredible little package. The simple IDE and forced constraints makes you really focus on the basics like fun gameplay loops and minimal graphics, and the fact you can do the code, graphics, sound effects, and music all in one little program is a really smart way to teach you all different aspects of game dev. It’s also so ridiculously easy to share your creations, outputting a simple HTML/JS combo that works perfectly on mobile and desktop even if they don’t own the program.
  - HanClinto 2y ago
    My daughter (12) got her start in Scratch, but had a hard time jumping into Python. She's enjoyed GBStudio, and has made a number of small games in that environment, and enjoys loading them onto a flash cart to run them on an old physical Gameboy.
  - gowld 2y ago
    https://code.org/student/middle-high https://code.org/student/middle-high has an environment that's scratch-like i the UI but the code is blockified JavaScript. (If you try to transpile a Scratch project to JavaScript using normal tools, you get an unmanageable JSON monstrosity) It hides some of the text syntax, while still being an onramp to text-based programming.
Annulus 2y ago
It is really hard to search when there’s a lot of code - I just had to be pretty careful with how I laid out everything, so I roughly knew where everything was
fatant 2y ago
I think for me it was something that came with practice and intentionally organizing my code in a way that made spatial sense to me.
varun_ch 2y ago
Apart from keeping your code tidy and succinct, there's also third party extensions like https://scratchaddons.com/addons/ https://scratchaddons.com/addons/ which can make writing code much more enjoyable - notably the `middle-click-popup`, `folders`, and `editor-devtools`. There's also an entire Debugger addon, which lets you log stuff, set breakpoints, see running threads.. Scratch Addons is awesome.

by eliben 2y ago

Rendello 2y ago

Scratch is not conducive to complex (traditional) projects, which I think is sort of the appeal for seasoned programmers. For my part, I woke up one weekend knowing I had to make a recursive bisection demo in it [1]. The effort I knew it would take vs the banality and lack of game play was really funny to me in an absurd way. Scratch lacks functions with return values, but if you hack global variables to be like registers, you can emulate them and even do recursion. At least that's how I did it. The Cartesian plane has (0,0) in the centre, which is annoying if you're used to traditional graphics. I have a young cousin who's intimidated by making the jump from Scratch into traditional game dev. I tell him that Scratch simplifies a lot of things, but it also makes a lot of things harder if you're used to regular programming. "Recursive Bisection on a Cartesian Plane in the Horizontal and Vertical Axes." (hold shift when you press "go" for fast mode): https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/1098438053 https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/1098438053

jgwil2 2y ago
That's really clever, bravo.
ashater 2y ago
My younger daughter, who is pretty good at making games in Scratch is not that interested in jumping into text/code based programming. I do think Scratch makes things a lot easier and text based programming is not thar appealing to kids. I will try to start her with Pygame but even that might make it seem very arcane and not very visual.
- hdjrudni 2y ago
  Maybe try something with instant feedback? I'm not sure what precisely, but I'm picturing a split view with text on the left and the output on the right. I do this in web dev, React + hot reload is wonderful. For games, I've done it with instantly recompiling shaders but not much else.
- Rendello 2y ago
  PICO-8 [1] might be a good choice. I always consider that kids want their friends to try their games, and so being able to easily distribute to the web is awesome. They can link their game from the site [2], or with some parental help they could even serve them from their own website, which could be very empowering for a kid. 1. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php 2. https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?cat=7&carts_tab=1&#sub=2&mode=carts https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?cat=7&carts_tab=1&#sub=2&mod...
  - sen 2y ago
    Another vote for Pico-8. It’s such an incredible little package. The simple IDE and forced constraints makes you really focus on the basics like fun gameplay loops and minimal graphics, and the fact you can do the code, graphics, sound effects, and music all in one little program is a really smart way to teach you all different aspects of game dev. It’s also so ridiculously easy to share your creations, outputting a simple HTML/JS combo that works perfectly on mobile and desktop even if they don’t own the program.
- HanClinto 2y ago
  My daughter (12) got her start in Scratch, but had a hard time jumping into Python. She's enjoyed GBStudio, and has made a number of small games in that environment, and enjoys loading them onto a flash cart to run them on an old physical Gameboy.
- gowld 2y ago
  https://code.org/student/middle-high https://code.org/student/middle-high has an environment that's scratch-like i the UI but the code is blockified JavaScript. (If you try to transpile a Scratch project to JavaScript using normal tools, you get an unmanageable JSON monstrosity) It hides some of the text syntax, while still being an onramp to text-based programming.

Annulus 2y ago

It is really hard to search when there’s a lot of code - I just had to be pretty careful with how I laid out everything, so I roughly knew where everything was

fatant 2y ago

I think for me it was something that came with practice and intentionally organizing my code in a way that made spatial sense to me.

varun_ch 2y ago

Apart from keeping your code tidy and succinct, there's also third party extensions like https://scratchaddons.com/addons/ https://scratchaddons.com/addons/ which can make writing code much more enjoyable - notably the `middle-click-popup`, `folders`, and `editor-devtools`. There's also an entire Debugger addon, which lets you log stuff, set breakpoints, see running threads.. Scratch Addons is awesome.