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It is unfortunate that modern web development has led to websites so complex that they either break entirely or look terrible in text-based browsers like Lynx.

by susam 2y ago

It is unfortunate that modern web development has led to websites so complex that they either break entirely or look terrible in text-based browsers like Lynx. Take Mastodon, for example: $ lynx https://mastodon.social/ […] To use the Mastodon web application, please enable JavaScript. Alternatively, try one of the native apps for Mastodon for your platform. The C2 Wiki does not load either: $ lynx https://wiki.c2.com/ […] javascript required to view this site why To their credit, at least they use the <noscript> tag to display the above notices. Some websites don't even bother with that. But there are many old school websites that still load fine to varying degrees: lynx https://danluu.com/ # Mostly okay but some needed spaces missing lynx https://en.wikipedia.org/ # Okay, but a large wall of links on top lynx https://irreal.org/blog/ # Renders fine lynx https://libera.chat/ # Mostly fine lynx https://news.ycombinator.com/ # Of course! lynx https://sachachua.com/ # Mostly fine lynx https://shkspr.mobi/ # Renders really well lynx https://susam.net/ # Disclosure: This is mine lynx https://norvig.com/ # A classic! lynx https://nullprogram.com/ # Also pretty good If you have more examples, please comment, and I'll add them to this list in the two hour edit window I have. While JavaScript has its place, I believe that websites that focus on delivering primarily text content could prioritise working well in TUI browsers. Sometimes testing it with text-based browsers may even show fundamental issues with your HTML. For example, several times, I've seen that multiple navigation links next to each other have no whitespace between them. The links may appear like this: HomeBlogRSSAboutCodebergMastodon Or, in a list of articles, dates and titles may appear jammed together: 14 Mar 2025The Lost Art of Dual Booting 15 Mar 2025Some Forgotten Features of Gopher 16 Mar 2025My Favourite DOS Games The missing spaces aren't obvious in a graphical browser due to the CSS styling hiding the issue, but in a text-based one, the issue becomes apparent. The number of text-based web users may be shrinking, but there are some of us who still browse the web using tools like lynx, w3m, and M-x eww, at least occasionally.

TachyonicBytes 2y ago
I have to add https://nullprogram.com https://nullprogram.com, just because of the care the author took to have it work better in lynx[1]: Just in case you haven’t tried it, the blog also works really well with terminal-based browsers, such as Lynx and ELinks. Go ahead and give it a shot. The header that normally appears at the top of the page is actually at the bottom of the HTML document structure. It’s out of the way for browsers that ignore CSS. [1] https://nullprogram.com/blog/2017/09/01/ https://nullprogram.com/blog/2017/09/01/
zimpenfish 2y ago
Brutaldon[0] is a Mastodon UI that (allegedly) works with Lynx. Which is something. [0] https://brutaldon.org/about https://brutaldon.org/about
johnisgood 2y ago
I made an e-commerce platform that has zero JavaScript. It is PHP only. Additionally, cgit uses JavaScript for updating idle time, but you do not need it, just refresh the page. But yeah, I wish people were more hesitant over-using JavaScript.
crazygringo 2y ago
Is it really so bad? Unlike computer interfaces, the web was never text-first. It was graphical from the start. The first browser was in a GUI, not a terminal. Sites have been hobbled/broken on Lynx since the very beginning. It's neat and can be convenient to have a browser that works in your terminal for simple stuff, but the web was never designed for that. It's natural and to be expected that many sites will break. The burden is really on Lynx to do what it can to support sites as they are, rather than sites to try to build compatibility with Lynx. It's kind of like, there are programs to "view" a PDF in the terminal, or at least its text content. But PDF authors shouldn't be expected to optimize the order text is presented for those programs. That's not what PDF was ever meant for, even if you can get it work sometimes.
- mongol 2y ago
  No it wasn't. The img element was not added to the standard until HTML 2.0
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    Images and other media were supported from the start, they just opened in separate windows instead of being inline. The first browser ran on NeXT, graphically. It did not grow out of the terminal. And the very first publicly formalized definition of HTML in 1993 did already include the img tag: https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt
    - c-linkage 2y ago
      OP never said that the web was terminal based. He said it was text-based. Text should render fine either in a terminal or on a graphical canvas.
      - johnkizer 2y ago
        That doesn't necessarily hold true with rich text, though...
ta1243 2y ago
And of course https://news.ycombinator.com/ https://news.ycombinator.com/ Which works perfectly, including navigation (next/prev/parent). The perfect way to use javascript to enhance a site (collapsing threads etc) but not require it. HN is hosted on a single machine in a colo somewhere (with a backup elsewhere), yet has far more value than the majority of sites 100 times as complex.
- monsieurbanana 2y ago
  Because HN value is the value of the comments, and those are a scarce resource. Making a great website (for whatever is your definition of great) doesn't guarantee that it will become valuable. All this to say, HN shouldn't an example to blindly follow.
cedilla 2y ago
> The number of text-based web users may be shrinking I wouldn't be surprised if it's growing in absolute numbers, in relative numbers it stays at essentially 0% where it always was.
- kragen 2y ago
  When I started using the WWW in 01992 the majority of Web users were probably using text-based browsers, and specifically Lynx, because that was what the University of Kansas was using for its campuswide information service (CWIS). Mosaic didn't exist yet, and most people accessing the internet were using either dumb terminals like I was (typically in my case a VT-100 or CIT-101 clone of it) or dialup terminal emulators like Procomm+.
tsimionescu 2y ago
> The missing spaces aren't obvious in a graphical browser due to the CSS styling hiding the issue, but in a text-based one, the issue becomes apparent. Why would this be considered "an issue" or "a problem in your HTML"? TUI browsers are really a fun novelty and not much more, I'd be shocked if even the largest sites in the world receive more than 1000 visits per day from lynx or eww or any other combined. Unless you have a compelling reason to think that your site will be used by terminal browser fans, there is no reason whatsoever to care about how your HTML renders without CSS. Even screen readers would not have problems properly reading links not separated by spaces correctly.
johnea 2y ago
I agree with your javascript complaints, and I use a graphical browser. I do prefer to surf with js disabled, and in most cases it actually works pretty well. But the lack of non-js mastedon has pretty much stopped me from reading posts on the system. I can surf github, and this site, with no js, but mastedon is a no go. The conversion of the internet into a scam ad distribution system is the primary culprit leading to the massive proliferation of js, along with the use of overly complex "frameworks" that could often be static html, I don't know what mastedon's excuse is...
anthk 2y ago
For mastodon, https://brutadon.org https://brutadon.org works with the 'old login form'. For the c2wiki, there are clones of it which work with plain text, but I can't remember the alternative domain. You can DDG/GG it, tho.

by susam 2y ago

TachyonicBytes 2y ago

I have to add https://nullprogram.com https://nullprogram.com, just because of the care the author took to have it work better in lynx[1]: Just in case you haven’t tried it, the blog also works really well with terminal-based browsers, such as Lynx and ELinks. Go ahead and give it a shot. The header that normally appears at the top of the page is actually at the bottom of the HTML document structure. It’s out of the way for browsers that ignore CSS. [1] https://nullprogram.com/blog/2017/09/01/ https://nullprogram.com/blog/2017/09/01/

zimpenfish 2y ago

Brutaldon[0] is a Mastodon UI that (allegedly) works with Lynx. Which is something. [0] https://brutaldon.org/about https://brutaldon.org/about

johnisgood 2y ago

I made an e-commerce platform that has zero JavaScript. It is PHP only. Additionally, cgit uses JavaScript for updating idle time, but you do not need it, just refresh the page. But yeah, I wish people were more hesitant over-using JavaScript.

crazygringo 2y ago

Is it really so bad? Unlike computer interfaces, the web was never text-first. It was graphical from the start. The first browser was in a GUI, not a terminal. Sites have been hobbled/broken on Lynx since the very beginning. It's neat and can be convenient to have a browser that works in your terminal for simple stuff, but the web was never designed for that. It's natural and to be expected that many sites will break. The burden is really on Lynx to do what it can to support sites as they are, rather than sites to try to build compatibility with Lynx. It's kind of like, there are programs to "view" a PDF in the terminal, or at least its text content. But PDF authors shouldn't be expected to optimize the order text is presented for those programs. That's not what PDF was ever meant for, even if you can get it work sometimes.

mongol 2y ago
No it wasn't. The img element was not added to the standard until HTML 2.0
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Images and other media were supported from the start, they just opened in separate windows instead of being inline. The first browser ran on NeXT, graphically. It did not grow out of the terminal. And the very first publicly formalized definition of HTML in 1993 did already include the img tag: https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt
  - c-linkage 2y ago
    OP never said that the web was terminal based. He said it was text-based. Text should render fine either in a terminal or on a graphical canvas.
    - johnkizer 2y ago
      That doesn't necessarily hold true with rich text, though...

ta1243 2y ago

And of course https://news.ycombinator.com/ https://news.ycombinator.com/ Which works perfectly, including navigation (next/prev/parent). The perfect way to use javascript to enhance a site (collapsing threads etc) but not require it. HN is hosted on a single machine in a colo somewhere (with a backup elsewhere), yet has far more value than the majority of sites 100 times as complex.

monsieurbanana 2y ago
Because HN value is the value of the comments, and those are a scarce resource. Making a great website (for whatever is your definition of great) doesn't guarantee that it will become valuable. All this to say, HN shouldn't an example to blindly follow.

cedilla 2y ago

> The number of text-based web users may be shrinking I wouldn't be surprised if it's growing in absolute numbers, in relative numbers it stays at essentially 0% where it always was.

kragen 2y ago
When I started using the WWW in 01992 the majority of Web users were probably using text-based browsers, and specifically Lynx, because that was what the University of Kansas was using for its campuswide information service (CWIS). Mosaic didn't exist yet, and most people accessing the internet were using either dumb terminals like I was (typically in my case a VT-100 or CIT-101 clone of it) or dialup terminal emulators like Procomm+.

tsimionescu 2y ago

> The missing spaces aren't obvious in a graphical browser due to the CSS styling hiding the issue, but in a text-based one, the issue becomes apparent. Why would this be considered "an issue" or "a problem in your HTML"? TUI browsers are really a fun novelty and not much more, I'd be shocked if even the largest sites in the world receive more than 1000 visits per day from lynx or eww or any other combined. Unless you have a compelling reason to think that your site will be used by terminal browser fans, there is no reason whatsoever to care about how your HTML renders without CSS. Even screen readers would not have problems properly reading links not separated by spaces correctly.

johnea 2y ago

I agree with your javascript complaints, and I use a graphical browser. I do prefer to surf with js disabled, and in most cases it actually works pretty well. But the lack of non-js mastedon has pretty much stopped me from reading posts on the system. I can surf github, and this site, with no js, but mastedon is a no go. The conversion of the internet into a scam ad distribution system is the primary culprit leading to the massive proliferation of js, along with the use of overly complex "frameworks" that could often be static html, I don't know what mastedon's excuse is...

anthk 2y ago

For mastodon, https://brutadon.org https://brutadon.org works with the 'old login form'. For the c2wiki, there are clones of it which work with plain text, but I can't remember the alternative domain. You can DDG/GG it, tho.