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> Also look at how violent humans are to their own species. Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. Also I think that organisms f

> Also look at how violent humans are to their own species. Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. Also I think that organisms feel most threatened by same-niche competitors, and least threatened by non-competitors. Similar but just different enough is like the worst case in terms of same-niche competition. Like how geese and ducks will act really adversarial towards each other, and then a beaver can just wander through and no one cares.

scotty79 2y ago
> Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. You could also say that atoms are a construct, also molecules and nuclei. Nature has no concept of any of those. But the clumping is repeatable enough at everyday energies so that it's useful to think about it in those terms.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > You could also say that atoms are a construct, also molecules and nuclei. You could say it, but they are real things that interact with the environment. DNA is a real thing that interacts with the environment. Species, the periodic table, etc. are constructs. They are useful because they help us understand the world.
  - scotty79 2y ago
    It's just clumps of matter. Ssme way species is just a clump of individuals. > Species, the periodic table, etc. are constructs. They are useful because they help us understand the world. My point exactly.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      That clump doesn't exist, except in rare circumstances - it's conceptual, which is why you use a metaphor. The clump of hydrogen and oxygen atoms that make a water molecule is actual, real - you can touch it and see it.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  My point is that it isn’t really unexpected from a biological perspective that humans are violent towards “their own species”, because our instincts don’t know about the concept of species. My impression is that people who bemoan man’s inhumanity to man typically act as if all humans should be interpreted as family members by our instincts and somehow they aren’t due to culture, and I don’t think that line of thinking is supported by biology (because species is a construct).
  - scotty79 2y ago
    I think it's compared to other animals who fight a lot (for mates for example) but it rarely ends with death.
    - pfannkuchen 2y ago
      I’m reacting to the quality of the post’s inference on how humans would behave towards non-humans. Where the inference is: if they do this to their friends, imagine what they would do to their enemies. I’m arguing that the inference is invalid because other humans aren’t their friends, because the human system goes from kin :) to OUTSIDER pretty fast. I’m not aware of evidence that it intensifies beyond OUTSIDER, and if anything I would imagine that it would diminish. If it diminishes, then humans could treat human-like species further away from them better than they treat rival humans, if their niche isn’t threatened by the human-like (but-not-human) species. So the inference has a hole in it. I’m just pointing out that this man’s inference has a flat. But really I’m just interested in engaging people on this topic, so I poke holes in the comments of people who seem interested, to get a reaction. Sometimes they knock over my argument and I learn something new.
      - scotty79 2y ago
        > human system goes from kin :) to OUTSIDER pretty fast. I’m not aware of evidence that it intensifies beyond OUTSIDER, Yeah, that sounds accurate. > if anything I would imagine that it would diminish Not sure what gives you that hope. People didn't really have diverse behaviors towards animals dependant on how human-like animals are.
fsckboy 2y ago
>Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species species are clades, and our genes know everything there is to know about clades
dotancohen 2y ago
> Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. Species is a construct because it is a useful concept to bin or categorize traits. The woke ideology of pretending that all constructs are borne of "inequality" and "injustice" has no place in the sciences, where binning is a useful tool for studying populations, not individuals. And yes, binning people into races, cultures, and nationalities is often useful too. Especially when they often self-identify as parts of those groups.
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  Calling any idea "woke ideology" doesn't sound like any science I'm familiar with.

scotty79 2y ago

> Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. You could also say that atoms are a construct, also molecules and nuclei. Nature has no concept of any of those. But the clumping is repeatable enough at everyday energies so that it's useful to think about it in those terms.

mmooss 2y ago
> You could also say that atoms are a construct, also molecules and nuclei. You could say it, but they are real things that interact with the environment. DNA is a real thing that interacts with the environment. Species, the periodic table, etc. are constructs. They are useful because they help us understand the world.
- scotty79 2y ago
  It's just clumps of matter. Ssme way species is just a clump of individuals. > Species, the periodic table, etc. are constructs. They are useful because they help us understand the world. My point exactly.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    That clump doesn't exist, except in rare circumstances - it's conceptual, which is why you use a metaphor. The clump of hydrogen and oxygen atoms that make a water molecule is actual, real - you can touch it and see it.
pfannkuchen 2y ago
My point is that it isn’t really unexpected from a biological perspective that humans are violent towards “their own species”, because our instincts don’t know about the concept of species. My impression is that people who bemoan man’s inhumanity to man typically act as if all humans should be interpreted as family members by our instincts and somehow they aren’t due to culture, and I don’t think that line of thinking is supported by biology (because species is a construct).
- scotty79 2y ago
  I think it's compared to other animals who fight a lot (for mates for example) but it rarely ends with death.
  - pfannkuchen 2y ago
    I’m reacting to the quality of the post’s inference on how humans would behave towards non-humans. Where the inference is: if they do this to their friends, imagine what they would do to their enemies. I’m arguing that the inference is invalid because other humans aren’t their friends, because the human system goes from kin :) to OUTSIDER pretty fast. I’m not aware of evidence that it intensifies beyond OUTSIDER, and if anything I would imagine that it would diminish. If it diminishes, then humans could treat human-like species further away from them better than they treat rival humans, if their niche isn’t threatened by the human-like (but-not-human) species. So the inference has a hole in it. I’m just pointing out that this man’s inference has a flat. But really I’m just interested in engaging people on this topic, so I poke holes in the comments of people who seem interested, to get a reaction. Sometimes they knock over my argument and I learn something new.
    - scotty79 2y ago
      > human system goes from kin :) to OUTSIDER pretty fast. I’m not aware of evidence that it intensifies beyond OUTSIDER, Yeah, that sounds accurate. > if anything I would imagine that it would diminish Not sure what gives you that hope. People didn't really have diverse behaviors towards animals dependant on how human-like animals are.

fsckboy 2y ago

>Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species species are clades, and our genes know everything there is to know about clades

dotancohen 2y ago

> Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. Species is a construct because it is a useful concept to bin or categorize traits. The woke ideology of pretending that all constructs are borne of "inequality" and "injustice" has no place in the sciences, where binning is a useful tool for studying populations, not individuals. And yes, binning people into races, cultures, and nationalities is often useful too. Especially when they often self-identify as parts of those groups.

amanaplanacanal 2y ago
Calling any idea "woke ideology" doesn't sound like any science I'm familiar with.